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Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

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What do you think about Schickeria's actions?

Poll ended at Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:08 pm

They are right
1
7%
I am unsure
0
No votes
They are wrong
14
93%
 
Total votes : 15

Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby The Spyware » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:12 pm

@ munichfan

IMO I think the main problem arouse when the method of representing your opinions passed the red lines (or showed some disrespect) that normal Bayern fans hate it

Okay You as a group didn't want Neuer , Okay that's your opinions , You showed it many times , Okay No one was angry about it , no one was denying you that right , It's an argument after all ,you see somethings in the player that you can't accept him with it (like you said he opposed his ideology) But some other people accept that and that's their opinion in the exact way

But The problem was when You said that's he is a blue pig (I think that was the insult if I remember correctly), Then Here no one will accept it , Then the club representatives will come out and that that isn't allowed and Bayern is known for his good hostility and and and ...Then the mistake came from you side in that situation, and the media can make a saga then and you will be mistaken in the eyes of all even the other Bayern fans


That's exactly was the same with Hoeness ( and to make it worse it was in the same time when you insulted Neuer) Okay you ca write a Banner saying You did say before you won't give them a cent and you can create a debate about that ,, But writing directly that you are Liar then again No one will like than as Bayern fan (non-Ultras), No one will accept an insult to Hoeness of course, and again you put yourselves in the mistaken side ,, and you knew what happened next , the saga , the club representative words , Mia San Uli and so on..

Got it ?
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby The Spyware » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:17 pm

And about Neuer now

I don't know what happened in the meeting between your representatives and him ?
the media wrote that everything is settled and then we we found Booing in the first home games in the Pre season.

So where the truth is ?
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:50 pm

quaazi wrote:Well many reasons, the core ultra concept being outdated, for one, an inflated sense of self-importance, a tribal/feudal view of football fandom as some kind of modern serfdom, and so on and on.

But most of all I dislike that the ultras do not realize what a privilege they have. They get to actively attend and be involved in one of the biggest (well, THE biggest, obviously :P ) clubs in the world and they dare DEMAND things from the club.

I guess you ultras have the right to disown Neuer if you want to, but don't drag the rest of us, or the players for that matter, down with that macho attitude.


I'll respond to you first, quaazi. Let me first remind you that I never said I was an ultrà ;)

Let me dive straight into your first point. The ultrà movement evolved in Germany only in the middle to late nineties. My question to you is what part of the ultrà concept is outdated? Do you honestly prefer the modern fan who buys every piece of official club merchandise and buys overpriced food and drink at the stadium, whilst watching the game seated in silence? Because that, quaazi, is the modern fan for you!

And now to your second point: the ultràs create the privilege for themselves. Many devote their lives to the club, others juggle their careers in law and medicine with their endless support for the team. They take on long trips abroad and devote much time and thought to what they say, display and do. Let me ask you why you believe that Bayern's chairmen have not kicked out the ultràs until now? This would be easy for them, as they know who the ultràs are. I'll tell you why: because they fit perfectly into the management's marketing concept of creating fun family experiences. They are part of the "Bayern Munich Allianz Arena Show" and they create revenue, because they create the atmosphere in Munich's stadium. Without them, the Allianz Arena would be as quiet as a graveyard. Now, that would definitely not make Uli Hoeneß happy, would it? After all, he was the one who wanted to build a "Hexenkessel" back in 2001.

Believe it or not, nearly every single ultrà gives a better impression to neutral onlookers on match days than the normal supporters who use football matches as an excuse to drink excessively and behave antisocially. Next time you go to a match and have a look at the people around you, if you don't happen to be one of them.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:02 pm

The Spyware wrote:@ munichfan

IMO I think the main problem arouse when the method of representing your opinions passed the red lines (or showed some disrespect) that normal Bayern fans hate it

Okay You as a group didn't want Neuer , Okay that's your opinions , You showed it many times , Okay No one was angry about it , no one was denying you that right , It's an argument after all ,you see somethings in the player that you can't accept him with it (like you said he opposed his ideology) But some other people accept that and that's their opinion in the exact way

But The problem was when You said that's he is a blue pig (I think that was the insult if I remember correctly), Then Here no one will accept it , Then the club representatives will come out and that that isn't allowed and Bayern is known for his good hostility and and and ...Then the mistake came from you side in that situation, and the media can make a saga then and you will be mistaken in the eyes of all even the other Bayern fans


That's exactly was the same with Hoeness ( and to make it worse it was in the same time when you insulted Neuer) Okay you ca write a Banner saying You did say before you won't give them a cent and you can create a debate about that ,, But writing directly that you are Liar then again No one will like than as Bayern fan (non-Ultras), No one will accept an insult to Hoeness of course, and again you put yourselves in the mistaken side ,, and you knew what happened next , the saga , the club representative words , Mia San Uli and so on..

Got it ?


And now to your Spyware :)

I agree with some parts of your post, however I have to correct you. The supporters never said "Blue pig" to Manuel Neuer, they were referring to 1860 Munich, the club's biggest rival (It doesn't matter what league rivals play in. Rivals will be rivals).

It is difficult to explain the supporters scene over an internet platform, however if I can say so much as to say that the supporters relationship with the management is very problematic and has been since early 2000. Whereas other club managements take steps towards the supporters in order to help them and their needs, Bayern Munich's management have made a string of bad decisions that ultimately worsened the atmosphere in the club AND of course the atmosphere in the stadium:

Whereas other clubs' supporters are allowed a megaphone, Munich's aren't. Half of Munich's supporters had their South Curve ticket taken away and had them replaced with a ticket in the North Curve, having a pretty much fatal effect on match day support. When the stadium was inaugrated, there wasn't even a standing area! When one drunk person misbehaved, the season tickets of 750 supporters (not ultràs) were revoked.

The relationship between supporters and management is heavily loaded and when it turned out that Uli Hoeneß had lied in order to gain more support at the club's presidential votes ("1860 will never get even a single cent from us again!". The crowd responded with chants and applause and voted him as president of Bayern Munich), I guess the patience of the fans who support the team at every single game in the year snapped. Personally, I, as an active and loyal supporter of Munich's first team and reserves, can understand the supporters decision to protest. Perhaps, those fans in the Allianz Arena who only attend one match in a lifetime and those who discuss Bayern Munich on internet forums would not be able to understand the background the supporters' decision to protest.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby The Spyware » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:44 pm

Yes I agree with you completely and I understand totally your points of views you mentioned but that isn't related to my previous post :) No one(or the majority) was angry at your opinions/Protests, It's a DEBATE after all and you would have seen it here in the forum at that time (I was on of those who supported Kraft much to be no.1 keeper at that time of January-february-March but afterwards I wasn't against getting Neuer to add to our squad) ,

But the main problem is the insult that no one love it and IMO it was a big mistake i n both occasions specially that of Hoeness.. and of course everyone appreciate MUCH your mega efforts in supporting the club every minute in home / away / reserve matches , that's also a point that has nothing to do with insulting a man Like Hoeness

I am happy to debate with you as an Ultras member and you accept it as I am from Egypt and I heavily support Zamalek and we have similar Problems here with Ultras group of the club (Named Ultras White Knights U.W.K ) but many(if not most) of them are blown out idiots and don't accept any criticism and always respond hey don't have any right to talk as you support from your keyboard only (although that's not a fact at all ) and so on ,, and yes they make FANTASTIC works every match (Banners/Entrances/Choreography) But when you criticize any of their acts/Opinions which sometimes are totally wrong you hear the same words yet again
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby The Spyware » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:49 pm

And Hey since you watch the reserve matches frequently please if you wouldn't mind help us on information about it ( The best players / Tactics / Jonker's work .... etc ) we have a thread for Bayern II matches here http://www.bayernforum.com/bundesliga-f3/bayern-munich-ii-and-youth-teams-matches-t5545.html but unfortunately we couldn't have a good reports on the matches
That would be much appreciated
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:52 pm

munichfan wrote:
I'll respond to you first, quaazi. Let me first remind you that I never said I was an ultrà ;)

fair enough, I didn't quite know who and how to address the post to.

munichfan wrote:Let me dive straight into your first point. The ultrà movement evolved in Germany only in the middle to late nineties. My question to you is what part of the ultrà concept is outdated? Do you honestly prefer the modern fan who buys every piece of official club merchandise and buys overpriced food and drink at the stadium, whilst watching the game seated in silence? Because that, quaazi, is the modern fan for you!

The modern fan doesn't visit the stadium more than once, maybe twice a year. Much like about 90% of the people on this forum. Globalization, especially the internet, does that. We just don't have the resources to be present every time ourselves. But do not think the modern fan doesn't put effort into his/hers support - desperately finding streams of a game in the middle of the night due to timezone differences, while trying to learn a new language just to understand and learn everything about the club isn't as easy as it sounds (it's funny because it doesn't sound easy at all!).

munichfan wrote:And now to your second point: the ultràs create the privilege for themselves. Many devote their lives to the club, others juggle their careers in law and medicine with their endless support for the team. They take on long trips abroad and devote much time and thought to what they say, display and do. Let me ask you why you believe that Bayern's chairmen have not kicked out the ultràs until now? This would be easy for them, as they know who the ultràs are. I'll tell you why: because they fit perfectly into the management's marketing concept of creating fun family experiences. They are part of the "Bayern Munich Allianz Arena Show" and they create revenue, because they create the atmosphere in Munich's stadium. Without them, the Allianz Arena would be as quiet as a graveyard. Now, that would definitely not make Uli Hoeneß happy, would it? After all, he was the one who wanted to build a "Hexenkessel" back in 2001.

That's a pretty good example of unwarranted self-importance right there. Assuming that these are the only people in the world who support Bayern so that an ultra group can't simply be replaced by a new one, I somehow have difficulty believing that barring Schickeria from entering the Allianz Arena would somehow create a bigger hole in the ticket sales than the ones they won't buy. Not that I would want that to happen, of course.


munichfan wrote:Believe it or not, nearly every single ultrà gives a better impression to neutral onlookers on match days than the normal supporters who use football matches as an excuse to drink excessively and behave antisocially. Next time you go to a match and have a look at the people around you, if you don't happen to be one of them.

You're still missing my initial point. I was never trying to argue that the ultras make the match day experience worse, that they do not support their team, or that they do not help out with providing the atmosphere. My point was that just the things they do does not make their opinion of football club Bayern München any more valid than ours. Working up a tribal aura around a team does not make them play better football. It doesn't really help anyone but the ultra scene themselves.

To this day I do not understand why the ultras did not celebrate the purchase of Neuer as a massive coup, a brilliant way to screw over their rivals. Is gloating "we got your captain to play for us" not better than "you got our captain"?

But yes, it is fairly obvious you don't care anyway. Your opinion on "internet fans" shows that. What you'd rather do is keep a clique of people that in your mind are the only ones allowed to make any criticism or commentary on the club, simply because they are born in München. A disgusting make-believe high horse for you to ride on. This is what I meant by serfdom, being chained to whatever piece of land you happen to born on. And the reason why I think the ultra scene is outdated. It doesn't matter if it popped up in the 90s, because it was already outdated by the 1890s, not to talk about the 1990s. A rivalry of city states, to sugarcoat it. A modern day caste system, to stop beating around the bush.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:20 am

quaazi wrote:But yes, it is fairly obvious you don't care anyway. Your opinion on "internet fans" shows that. What you'd rather do is keep a clique of people that in your mind are the only ones allowed to make any criticism or commentary on the club, simply because they are born in München. A disgusting make-believe high horse for you to ride on.


You, my friend, are strongly mistaken. I was born in Germany (Mönchengladbach), however moved at the age of 3 to Oman. Since then, I have lived in Great Britain, Italy, Belgium, France and the United Arab Emirates. Each of your posts makes false implications and affronts towards me.

And just for your reference. Most of Bayern Munich's support, including the ultrà scene is from outside Munich and spread all around Germany. Munich is in 1860's hands. Don't know very much for the big and defaming words you write on here, do you?
Last edited by munichfan on Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:22 am

Also, please tell me why the management hasn't kicked out Schickeria?

I am dying to hear.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:09 am

munichfan wrote:
You, my friend, are strongly mistaken. I was born in Germany (Mönchengladbach), however moved at the age of 3 to Oman. Since then, I have lived in Great Britain, Italy, Belgium, France and the United Arab Emirates. Each of your posts makes false implications and affronts towards me.

Because each of your post implies that we do not deserve to be Bayern fans. So have a healthy dose of **** you.

munichfan wrote:And just for your reference. Most of Bayern Munich's support, including the ultrà scene is from outside Munich and spread all around Germany.

That just makes the whole thing surreal and pointless, you know. As if a Swabian had any right to be offended by a Schalke player moving to Bayern. :roll:
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:10 am

munichfan wrote:Also, please tell me why the management hasn't kicked out Schickeria?

I am dying to hear.

Because... why would they? "Hoeness kicks out die-hard fans", "Arroganz Arena not big enough for two", the newspaper headlines would be endless.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:47 am

Qaazi, you cannot be helped. I don't imply and I don't believe anything of the sort. At no point was there ever a whole stadium full of ultràs and there never will be. In case you didn't know, Munich's particular ultrà groups engage in campaings advocating diversity, as well as projects against sexism, homophobia, etc. Diversity means, also having different types of supporter in the stadium and it is precisely for that reason that the South Curve showcases itself as a unit. Because you have a share of ultràs, "Allesfahrer" and just normal active Bayernfans. And they all have fun supporting the team.

One more thing about Uli Hoeneß kicking ultràs out. It's happened already in 2003 and in 2007 that Hoeneß kicked out the ultràs. Nothing was written in the press about it. I repeat, nothing. So negative publicity in the media is the least of things the management would have to fear. HOWEVER, each time a part of the South Curve was wiped out, the Olympiastadion / Allianz Arena went from an averagely loud stadium to... well yeah, something similar to a graveyard ;)
Last edited by munichfan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby hgb09 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:31 am

Just a question. Who are u to judge people and say that they don't deserve to be Bayern fans? Who gave u this right?
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:36 am

Did you not just read the last post?

In fact, did you read any post where I judged who deserves to be a Bayern fan?
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:40 am

munichfan wrote:Perhaps, those fans in the Allianz Arena who only attend one match in a lifetime and those who discuss Bayern Munich on internet forums would not be able to understand the background the supporters' decision to protest.

If this is not a jab at us not being able to attend the games then I don't know what is.

Seriously, you are doing a piss-poor job at promoting this FCBWW if your first posts are ragging on us at not understanding anything because we're just internet fans.
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