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A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Discussions about anything in general about Bayern, such as tactics, finances, kits, merchandise etc.
 

Do you agree with the idea of sending a letter criticizing our club's transfer policies?

Poll ended at Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:04 pm

Definitely... Yessss!
7
35%
I agree... But I'm not sure if it will be actually effective...
9
45%
Nonsense!... Ridiculous idea!
4
20%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby dambun » Thu May 12, 2011 5:30 pm

Element wrote:
SilentStrike wrote:Had we signed Ribery initially for 6 years then we would still be paying him that original salary of 3.8M and not 10M.

4.8 not 3.8 !! ( i have the salary list of the bayern players that year at home)

and i think yes , Ribery would have agreed , because only few years before his salary was 250 thousand euros a year (something around that) with Galatasaray


exactly guys!
and that's the same exact mistake we are going to make with Neuer...
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby raz25 » Thu May 12, 2011 6:38 pm

SilentStrike wrote:Had we signed Ribery initially for 6 years then we would still be paying him that original salary of 3.8M and not 10M.


Firstly, by offering him a longer contract we would obviously have to offer him more money. Had he signed a 6 year contract for let's say 6-7 million/ year, this would be his fifth year of his contract and we would be in the same boat as we were 1 and 2 years ago, trying to extend his contract.

So let's do the math, considering we extend his contract in the last year of his contract in both cases:

Original 4 year contract + 4 year extension: 5mil times 3 + 4 times 10 mil = 55 mil
Original 6 year contract + 2 year extension: 6.5mil times 5 + 2 times 10 mil = 52.5 mil

By losing 2.5 millions in the long run, you economize 4.5 mil in the short run (first 3 seasons) while getting to see how the player is doing at his new club. Fair enough for me.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby SilentStrike » Thu May 12, 2011 10:32 pm

raz25 wrote:Firstly, by offering him a longer contract we would obviously have to offer him more money.

Who says? I don't see why we would 'obviously' have to offer more money? I don't see the obvious bit?

Anyways lets get back to the main flaws in your logic. I'll accept your theory which states we'd have to pay him 6M
You love to express it in terms of calculations so lets do it.

When there were two seasons left in Ribery's contract, we were offered 80M by Chelsea.
Ribery originally signed a 4 year contract of earning 5M per season that would cost us 20M after four years

Had everything gone as expected and Ribery didn't **** a teenager; Ribery would be leaving now. For free.
Had he signed a 6 year contract for lets say 6M (your value), we'd by now have lost 24M on wages and he'd have two seasons left in his contract.
As I said Chelsea offered us 80M with two seasons remaining. Ribery is now 28 instead of 26 so lets say the offer is reduced to 40M. Madrid paid 74M for a 28 year old Zidane as well.

So since you like to do calculations;
4 year contract: a cost of 20M and he's leaving (-20M)
6 year contract: a cost of 24M with an offer of ~40M (+16M)

So next time we sign a star we should according to you sign a 4 year contract because:
1) You foresaw he's going to get caught having underage sex, and we'd have a relative loss of 2.5M
2) Things go as expected and we'd have a relative loss of 36M

Great logic there raz25. Good job. I think you don't remember the pile of shit we were when Ballack left us for free.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby raz25 » Fri May 13, 2011 1:03 pm

You can't understand why we'd have to give a player a bigger salary when he's about to sign a contract that's gonna keep him for almost half of his career never mind that those would the years of his maximum potential, yet there's no question that Ribery would have left for free if he hadn't **** a teen. That makes a lot of sense, good work.


SilentStrike wrote:So since you like to do calculations;
4 year contract: a cost of 20M and he's leaving (-20M)
6 year contract: a cost of 24M with an offer of ~40M (+16M)


That's just wrong. If we didn't sell him for 80m (fact) why would he sell him for 40m? Anyways, If you want to make a fair comparison, we either sell Ribery in both cases or he leaves for free in both cases.


SilentStrike wrote:As I said Chelsea offered us 80M with two seasons remaining. Ribery is now 28 instead of 26 so lets say the offer is reduced to 40M. Madrid paid 74M for a 28 year old Zidane as well.


Madrid also paid 70m for Kaka, a player a lot more proven than Ribery and look how good he's doing. For all we know, Ribery might have ended exactly like him and we would be in a shit situation paying him big money for 6 years. This is what you don't get, it's just theoretical talk. There's no way we could have known he would end up in TOP 3 players of the world or that he would have **** a teen and that would help us extend with him. We are only discussing the advantages and disadvantages of him signing a 4 year or 6 year contract, nothing further than that. This is where you guys go crazy. We CAN hold on to our players longer than the original contract.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby SilentStrike » Fri May 13, 2011 2:02 pm

raz25 wrote:You can't understand why we'd have to give a player a bigger salary when he's about to sign a contract that's gonna keep him for almost half of his career never mind that those would the years of his maximum potential, yet there's no question that Ribery would have left for free if he hadn't **** a teen. That makes a lot of sense, good work.

Are you trying to sound smart? Because it's not working.
In life job security is one of the most important things. People want longer contracts to be sure they have a job for longer. They are usually even willing to have a LOWER salary in that case just to make sure they're not going to be unemployed later. Not saying that's the case for professional football players. But I don't see why it would 'obviously' go the complete other way then.
And dude every Bayern fan knows Ribery was on the verge of leaving. If you're too dumb to understand this I feel I'm wasting my time arguing. He constantly made comments about a move to a topclub and Uli&co often replied saying we'd rather keep him one extra season and let him go for free, than selling him. There's plenty of evidence to see he would leave for free. If your memory capacity can't handle two year old news. I suggest http://www.google.com so you can look back at the transfercomments Ribery made at the time.
Now keep those ridiculous sarcastic comments like "That makes a lot of sense, good work" to yourself because they do make sense. Thank you.

raz25 wrote:If you want to make a fair comparison, we either sell Ribery in both cases or he leaves for free in both cases.

How on Earth do you want to call a comparison of this kind in such a situation fair!? You're completely ignoring the value of a contract. After four years he could leave for free and otherwise we'd have power over him for another two years. There's no such distinct line saying "we either sell him in both cases or keep him in both cases", if he has a contract that runs out after four years he leave for free, on Bosman. We don't have power to sell him. How do you not understand this. Gosh I feel like I'm explaining to a four year old.

However when he as a six year contract then yes, we can sell him with two years remaining. In one case we have power to sell him or keep him, and in the other case we have absolutely no power. Your comparison is far from fair. Sorry to blemish your logic but you completely ignored the power of a contract.

raz25 wrote:Madrid also paid 70m for Kaka, a player a lot more proven than Ribery and look how good he's doing. For all we know, Ribery might have ended exactly like him and we would be in a shit situation paying him big money for 6 years.

Comparison fail #2. You want to compare the performance of a 28 year old who had performed shit for two years since his good season in 06-07 with a rising star of 23 years old? If you want to bring up a decent comparison mention someone like Ricardo Quaresma.

Yes indeed Ribery could have failed. And yes he MIGHT have been ambition-less and sit on the bench, rather than leave in such a case. So we would pay 5M extra for two years, and have a fantastic substitute. You do the maths as you enjoyed comparing with numbers, there was a slight chance he could fail. And we lose 10M more. OR the likely happened and he could become a star and we'd be laughing with such a long contract.

So Madrid are signing Sahin and Ozil for six years for abnormally low wages. Yet you think what Bayern are doing is better. Signing Ballack for four years, begging him to extend in his last season, he leaves and we fail to qualify for CL. Signing Ribery for four years and later once again beg him to stay longer. If you really think this is better then I have my doubts on whether you are really a Bayern fan.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby raz25 » Fri May 13, 2011 3:43 pm

SilentStrike wrote:Are you trying to sound smart? Because it's not working.
In life job security is one of the most important things. People want longer contracts to be sure they have a job for longer. They are usually even willing to have a LOWER salary in that case just to make sure they're not going to be unemployed later. Not saying that's the case for professional football players. But I don't see why it would 'obviously' go the complete other way then.


You were the one who started with the shitty sarcastic comments, not me. If that's not the case for football players why are you even mentioning it? And I already stated my reasons to believe why would he get a bigger salary, so I'm not going to repeat myself just because you only skimmed through my post.

SilentStrike wrote:And dude every Bayern fan knows Ribery was on the verge of leaving. If you're too dumb to understand this I feel I'm wasting my time arguing. He constantly made comments about a move to a topclub and Uli&co often replied saying we'd rather keep him one extra season and let him go for free, than selling him. There's plenty of evidence to see he would leave for free. If your memory capacity can't handle two year old news. I suggest http://www.google.com so you can look back at the transfercomments Ribery made at the time.
Now keep those ridiculous sarcastic comments like "That makes a lot of sense, good work" to yourself because they do make sense. Thank you.


SilentStrike wrote:How on Earth do you want to call a comparison of this kind in such a situation fair!? You're completely ignoring the value of a contract. After four years he could leave for free and otherwise we'd have power over him for another two years. There's no such distinct line saying "we either sell him in both cases or keep him in both cases", if he has a contract that runs out after four years he leave for free, on Bosman. We don't have power to sell him. How do you not understand this. Gosh I feel like I'm explaining to a four year old.

However when he as a six year contract then yes, we can sell him with two years remaining. In one case we have power to sell him or keep him, and in the other case we have absolutely no power. Your comparison is far from fair. Sorry to blemish your logic but you completely ignored the power of a contract.


I'll keep my sarcastic comments to myself once you do the same. And your posts do make a lot of sense but not as replies to mines. Seriously have you read my posts? Where did I say that Ribery didn't want to go away?! You said that we were lucky he extended because of the teen incident, and I replied to you by saying it wasn't necessary the decisive thing, that's it, period.

Look again at what you said and what I said regarding the 4/6 year contract comparison. Of course that by having 6 years in his contract he can't go for free after 4 years. That's a nobrainer, but whatever, I won't take it as an insult, I'll just take it as if you hugely misinterpreted everything. I hope you finally get what I'm saying now, or else I'll just stop replying to you, as it doesn't make any sense to keep going.
So again, with the original 4 year contract, we preferred to keep Ribery for longer and let him go for free instead of getting 80mil from Chelsea. How are we powerless here? Had he had a 6 year contract wouldn't he still want to get away? Of course he would. Wouldn't our board still prefer to have him for 6 years and let him go for free instead of 40mil offer from mandril or whatever? Of course they would. Do you get what I'm saying now?

SilentStrike wrote:Comparison fail #2. You want to compare the performance of a 28 year old who had performed shit for two years since his good season in 06-07 with a rising star of 23 years old? If you want to bring up a decent comparison mention someone like Ricardo Quaresma.

Yes indeed Ribery could have failed. And yes he MIGHT have been ambition-less and sit on the bench, rather than leave in such a case. So we would pay 5M extra for two years, and have a fantastic substitute. You do the maths as you enjoyed comparing with numbers, there was a slight chance he could fail. And we lose 10M more. OR the likely happened and he could become a star and we'd be laughing with such a long contract.

So Madrid are signing Sahin and Ozil for six years for abnormally low wages. Yet you think what Bayern are doing is better. Signing Ballack for four years, begging him to extend in his last season, he leaves and we fail to qualify for CL. Signing Ribery for four years and later once again beg him to stay longer. If you really think this is better then I have my doubts on whether you are really a Bayern fan.


Whatever man, the idea was that he could fail, whoever he was. "laughing with such a long conctract"... it's 2 years more, that's it. So for the last time, had Ribery had a 6 year contract wouldn't we still beg him to stay in his fifth year if he wanted to go anyway? I don't know if you figured it out or not, but everything I said it's based on the need to give the player a bigger salary. If that's not the case, or if the difference is minimal, then of course I'm pro 6 years, duh.

And as much as I hate to say it, it's the truth. If you ask the young footballers outside of Germany where would they prefer to end up playing, in Madrid or in Munchen, what do you think they'll answer? Exactly. It's almost everybody's dream club so they obviously accept shit wages. Wouldn't you want a 10 year deal with Bayern with a salary of -1000$/ month? I know I would.

I hope you didn't take anything personally as I didn't.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby SilentStrike » Fri May 13, 2011 8:53 pm

raz25 wrote:If that's not the case for football players why are you even mentioning it?

Read again what I said, this time with your glasses. I said I don't know if it's the case. Neither do you or anyone here. Well, apparently you 'obviously' do :^o , but most people don't have access to such disclosed information. However you, 'obviously' must have some special connections to get access to such 'obvious' information.

raz25 wrote:"laughing with such a long conctract"... it's 2 years more, that's it.

What you just said here completely discredits everything you said before. Two years. Do you have any idea how vital two years in a contract can be? You entirely ignoaahwhahSDFasrjh... Ok I can't be bothered anymore.

+1 Karma to u for the arguing.
We both have different opinions. I'll respect yours, hope you can respect mine and that's it.
This is taking too much time :P I still got an Economics exam to study for on Monday.

Oh and before I forget,
raz25 wrote:I hope you didn't take anything personally as I didn't.

Good. And don't worry about me someone over the internet really isn't going to emotionally affect me :)
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby dambun » Fri May 13, 2011 9:03 pm

1. First of all, I don't agree with such comparisons using some imaginary salaries and then concluding whatever one wants... This method's results are quite sensitive to the values selected for salaries... and thus, are not reliable means of deducing...

But It's easy to see that if Ribery was signed a 6-year contract, we would have significantly benefited... not only from a financial point of view... but also we would have had much less media fuss around the team for the past 2 years.... all the reports of Ribery being gone and wanting to go to Madrid... and all the problems it made for our team on and off the field, all the lack of concentration it caused and all the damage it caused to our club's image....
We would still have had Ribery on a very lower wage and could have much more easily extended with him this summer or the next, paying much less salary compared to the current 10M he is earning....

2. We are not advising that our club sign 6-year contracts with every player... but only with ones with very high odds of success and low age-range... Take Neuer for example.... He is very young for a keeper, and he is definitely world class, if not the best GK in the world.... WHY are we not signing a longer contract with him if he is paid above all other GKs in the world???? What good does a 4-year deal with him do to us????
This is not smart business if you ask me.....

SilentStrike wrote:So Madrid are signing Sahin and Ozil for six years for abnormally low wages. Yet you think what Bayern are doing is better. Signing Ballack for four years, begging him to extend in his last season, he leaves and we fail to qualify for CL. Signing Ribery for four years and later once again beg him to stay longer. If you really think this is better then I have my doubts on whether you are really a Bayern fan.

I don't have aby doubts raz25 is a Bayern fan, neither does Silentstrike if you ask me, but Silent is making a very good point.... With such short contracts we are either way a loser: If the player leaves us for free (or cheap) we lose.... and if we manage to extend with him with very high salaries, we lose again (a financial loss... which itself will affect our sport ambitions as well)
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby raz25 » Fri May 13, 2011 9:55 pm

Silentstrike, you keep quoting "obviously" and you discredit everything I said before/after, I shared my reasons to believe so but whatever, let's just leave it. Of course I respect your opinion otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to respond to you. Good luck at your economics exam and thank you for the karma. I would have also given you +1 karma had you went more easy on the insults, but I guess it's understandable as you are stressed with the exam.

Dambun, it's easy to say what was good, what was bad or what would have been better after you've seen how the situation developed. In your Neuer example, I would also 100% prefer a 6 year contract. We all know he's world class and there's no way he could fail.
But if you take Hazard for example, I would prefer a 4 year contract with a 4mil/year salary over a 6 year contract with 6mil/year salary.
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby dambun » Fri May 13, 2011 10:13 pm

raz25 wrote:Dambun, it's easy to say what was good, what was bad or what would have been better after you've seen how the situation developed. In your Neuer example, I would also 100% prefer a 6 year contract. We all know he's world class and there's no way he could fail.


That's all I'm saying... we should adjust the length of the contract based on the reliability and the quality of the player.... That's it....

Another thing is that we should sign longer contracts with our talented academy players.... every talented youngter wants to sign professional contracts ASAP... we should take advantage of that and sign longer contracts.... this is not hard at all, esp. if we improve our loaning-out policy.....
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby dambun » Fri May 13, 2011 10:16 pm

raz25 wrote:But if you take Hazard for example, I would prefer a 4 year contract with a 4mil/year salary over a 6 year contract with 6mil/year salary.

salaries are not exactly proportional to the length of contract.... And I believe every player of Hazard's talent wants to play somewhere and show what he can do... so if we are going to sign him, I prefer signing a 6-year deal of 4.8M salary rather than a 4-year deal of 4M salary....
Even if he does not succeed, he will want to go after a couple of season.... so we still manage to sell him for a good sum....

========
+Karma points to Silentstrike and raz25 for discussion... =D>
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby dambun » Fri May 20, 2011 6:44 pm

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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby München Minded » Fri May 20, 2011 8:31 pm

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times since we had LvG as our coach have I wanted to give Bayern a yelling at about transfers. LvG's pipe dream of not needing to reinforce especially in the needed areas of defense were absolutely absurd, and Nerlinger being the puppet he is just agreed that we were ok. We obviously weren't, and in years past the policy by the board was to add 2-3 signings a season, due to turn-over, bad performers, etc. in refining our squad - keeping a core of solid good performing stars. LvG comes along and only wants reserves, and look at what the reserves did this past season - hah. Bayern have been blinded by coaches in recent seasons, but it seems that Heynckes is changing some of that -- curious to see what he does a season from now. Also I don't like contantly revamping the squad and going on a transfer binge of buying 10 new signings because our last season sucked. I would actually like it if we could actually just tweak the club and add a couple of top signings with bringing in younger reserve players every season -- then when 1 or 2 don't work out, we continue to refine. Also, Bayern should try and sign the best German players, and not just fill the squad with foreign players -- a few is fine.

I also don't like losing every promising youngster that comes out of our youth department. Its like we got several like Schweini and Lahm in that generation, and then nothing for a while then Badstuber and Müller, then nothing. Hopefully with Jonker being the reserves coach we can get back to the glory days and actually have some decent prospects.

Anyway, Bayern has seemed schizophrenic about transfers, being up and down and all over the map. We won't consistantly win honours and be considered a world class club if we keep playing this game of transfer splurge one season then cheap bastards the next -- be consistent. I always look forward to comments from Beckenbauer every season that are blunt and strike right to the heart of the matter -- like a boot up the ass -- and after this past season it was no exception -- Thanks Franz, we need more!
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby vijay92 » Fri May 20, 2011 9:11 pm

Just a question, a letter to the managers of fcb do you mean this will go to nerlinger. Isnt it pretty obvious that he has to be sacked. Maybe a letter to the board "Koan Nerlinger"
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Re: A letter to the managers of FCB ???

Postby Stigger » Sat May 21, 2011 12:23 am

I think we should start a protest against Nerlinger. I don't have anything against the guy personally, in fact I wish him and his family all the best but I think he just doesn't have the personality to be in the position that he is in. Look at his track record since he has been at Bayern, we have lost a lot of talent, contracts extensions with promising talents have not been extended, we loaned players out only to sell at the end of the season(no one is going to be a absolute superstar their first season as a professional, except Muller), we are over paying in transfers, We aren't looking for the right caliber of players to improve our squad. We only show enough ambition to win the BL and not the CL, financially our contracts that we do extend are financially irresponsible, and lastly we didn't improve our roster last season after it was clear we needed to improve our defense because Nerlinger believed the current squad was able to compete in the CL, BL, and Pokal.

Once again I have nothing against Nerlinger personally but I think a person like Kahn or someone with the same personality is whats needed to make Bayern once again World beaters...
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