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2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:39 pm

tflags wrote:Javi, take a seat, please.

I wished you'd have started with this phrase, I would have stopped reading there :|

I don't know, maybe when he has less than double the amount of assists as The Passing King™, the one who's the gem of your eye, we can start talking. And that's beating The Passing King™ at what he's supposed to be best at. You fail to recognise Javi's biggest contribution, aerials won. Javi is at 3.3 per match. To put it into perspective, Hummels is 2nd with 2.8 and Lewandowski 3rd with 1.9. Here's the competition for Javi's playing position:

Vidal 1.8
Thiago 1.5
Tolisso 1
Rudy 0.6
James 0.3

As a sidenote, in the Bundesliga this season Javi had the 10th* highest pass success percentage in the squad at 88.6%.
* and that's counting Friedl's 45 minutes of playing time which put him as #4, as well as Alaba who has an identical %.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:41 pm

Often you can create more by breaking an opposing action than by 100 passes.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:42 pm

Who’s ThePassingKing[TRADE MARK SIGN]️? Thiago?
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:44 pm

#12 wrote:Who’s ThePassingKing[TRADE MARK SIGN]️? Thiago?

8)
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:47 pm

MUTU wrote:
#12 wrote:Who’s ThePassingKing[TRADE MARK SIGN]️? Thiago?

8)


Is that a yes?
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby tflags » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:00 pm

So anyhow, for a designated regista, with those numbers, Javi is not good enough. Unless of course you want to somehow have him win balls in the air all the way to the other box. Aerials, on a congested midfield while outnumbered like the last games have been, will certainly lead to second balls and turnovers.

Gee, great suggestion...

Javi, painful to say, is best suited as a hell of a CB. Even then, he’ll have to rank up better stats if he wants to stay in midfield cause last night he sure as hell didn’t contribute much going forward.

MUTU, would you mind not mocking players? Bad example man.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:05 pm

tflags wrote:So anyhow, for a designated regista, with those numbers, Javi is not good enough. Unless of course you want to somehow have him win balls in the air all the way to the other box. Aerials, on a congested midfield while outnumbered like the last games have been, will certainly lead to second balls and turnovers.

Gee, great suggestion...

Javi, painful to say, is best suited as a hell of a CB. Even then, he’ll have to rank up better stats if he wants to stay in midfield cause last night he sure as hell didn’t contribute much going forward.

MUTU, would you mind not mocking players? Bad example man.

I'm not mocking any players. I'm just teasing you :P :mrgreen:

Thiago is indeed the passing king in the squad, I truly think he deserves that title, and I'm not being ironic with it. That said, for all his passes, he's registered a total of 1 assist in the Bundesliga and 0 in the Champions League so far this season. If you can't admit that's ironically underwhelming then we definitely aren't on the same page.

Martinez is, quite simply, head and shoulders the best player in the squad to play in front of the defence. No matter how many stats you try to throw to try and prove otherwise, I will throw even more stats at you that consolidate my point. Martinez as DM should be the first player Heynckes chooses when he's working out his starting XI, given that Neuer is still out injured.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:16 pm

My two cents: Maybe he didn’t contribute on attack - but he sure as hell saved us from being down 2-1...
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby tflags » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:18 pm

I’ll look up Vidal’s numbers in more detail but so far I glanced at a much better passing rate, touches and accuracy. Either way, anyone who follows football will probably tell you even going forward it is best to look at key passes for DM rather than assists as positional play is key.

Throwing assists at a DM is like asking a full back where are his aerials? Stats are important, but I’m getting the feeling we are not exactly sure what we should be looking for in each position. . . It is sort of funny discussing players this way.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:24 pm

tflags wrote:Stats are important, but I’m getting the feeling we are not exactly sure what we should be looking for in each position. . . It is sort of funny discussing players this way.

You've hit the nail on the head. What I (and apparently Heynckes too, given by how much he trusts him) is looking for is not the same as what you're looking for. I care for anticipations, tackles and aerials won. Martinez is the best player in the squad in 2 out of these 3 attributes. Passing percentages (esp. without even taking assists into perspective), touches and shot accuracy are something I'd associate more with a central midfielder or an attacking midfielder rather than a defensive midfielder.

This should help consolidate my point:
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MoFattal » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:25 pm

MUTU wrote:If, hypothetically, every player was 100% physically and match-fit, and today was the Champions League final, what would your ideal formation look like?



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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:27 pm

MoFattal wrote:
MUTU wrote:If, hypothetically, every player was 100% physically and match-fit, and today was the Champions League final, what would your ideal formation look like?




Hmm close to mine but with Vidal instead of Coman. Interesting.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby tflags » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:33 pm

MUTU wrote: Passing percentages (esp. without even taking assists into perspective), touches and shot accuracy are something I'd associate more with a central midfielder or an attacking midfielder rather than a defensive midfielder.


I am watching Spain 1982. No wait, Mexico 86. Oh God, the 80s are back. :cry:
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:41 pm

What are you even arguing T? Pure destroyers are back in style. Casemiro Is what brought balance back to Real's midfield and has been a key player for them since. The trick is to use him alongside a deep-lying distributor (aka Kroos or Thiago).

BTW, both Madrid and Barça seem to be using variations of wingerless-442s. We should give it a try ourselves;

Lewy-Müller
James-Thiago-Javi-Tolisso
Alaba-Hummels-Boa-Kimmich
Neuer

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Aequitas1987 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:52 pm

I wholeheartedly agree with Mutu regarding Martinez being the first person on the call sheet for defensive shielding. Vidal, Tolisso, Thiago, Rudy none of them can provide the defensive solidity that our back line needs. Vidal being the closest but he is there for turnovers and heavy pressing not for pure positioning and shielding (basic simple defense).

I am worried about Alaba's injury - Rafinha did a brilliant job defensively deputizing for his loss but we really do need Alaba going forward to provide more width to what we can all agree is a severe lack of wide penetration since Coman's injury.

With everyone fit Default - 4-2-3-1


Wingplay from Left
- Javi combines with Hummels & Boateng and plays slightly ahead for a 3 MAN CB Line.
- Vidal Drifts slightly left (LCM) to provide some cover in case of opposition turnover and to cut passing lines for counter-attack / win lob clearances.
- Alaba + Thiago combine on the left wing and stretch defence creating space for
- Kimmich to cut inside and play alongside James on the edge of the box and provide extra penetration and passing options.
- Muller and Lewandowski up front

Wingplay from Right
- Javi combines with Hummels & Boateng and plays slightly ahead for a 3 MAN CB Line.
- Vidal Drifts slightly right (RCM) to provide some cover in case of opposition turnover and to cut passing lines for counter-attack / win lob clearances.
- Muller + Kimmich combine on the right wing and stretch defence creating space for
- Alaba to cut inside and play alongside James on the edge of the box and provide extra penetration and passing options.
- Thiago and Lewandowski up front

Attacking from center
- James with Muller+Lewandowski up front providing triangle of doom.
- Thiago right behind them as a hybrid box-to box / attacking CAM
- Kimmich, Vidal, Alaba providing first defensive line / turnover and square passing options.
- Boateng, Martinez, Hummels providing last defensive line / win aerial clearances.

Of the above scenarios, with our lack of true wingers, I would prefer us to concentrate more on attacking from the center and then attacking from the left (Muller drifts).
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