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2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:23 pm

Can't understand why Müller makes everyone's starting lineups in here when he hasn't been the Müller that we know for more than a year

Yes, he's the great Thomas Müller, but if he wants to be a starter he needs to play like a starter. His performances in the last year and a half aren't worth of a place in the starting lineup.

And I'm tired of all that "He hasn't been played in his position" thing, because he's been playing literally everywhere with Ancelotti and Löw and still no success

We all assume that Ribery can no longer be a starter in this team, but it's the same case with Müller. The only difference is that Thomas is still young and can improve while RIbery's fitness is decreasing because of his age.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby SrLuisGuilherme » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:48 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Can't understand why Müller makes everyone's starting lineups in here when he hasn't been the Müller that we know for more than a year

Yes, he's the great Thomas Müller, but if he wants to be a starter he needs to play like a starter. His performances in the last year and a half aren't worth of a place in the starting lineup.

And I'm tired of all that "He hasn't been played in his position" thing, because he's been playing literally everywhere with Ancelotti and Löw and still no success

We all assume that Ribery can no longer be a starter in this team, but it's the same case with Müller. The only difference is that Thomas is still young and can improve while RIbery's fitness is decreasing because of his age.

funny because there isn't anyone that deserves the place more than him IMO. Coman? Inconsistency defines him so far. James? He only just got here and has proved nothing yet. He also hasn't played at his usual level for more than a season at RM. Ribéry? Only thing he does these days are some fancy tricks with the ball. Thiago? AM is not where he should be playing. Basically we have only two players that have their spots guaranteed in the starting XI, Lewy and Robben (who can't even stay fit for a very long time). Müller form isn't his best, true. But he's been contributing for other things on the pitch as well, plus he's been arguably our best attacker in preseason. I don't get why he shouldn't be in people's line ups.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:26 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Can't understand why Müller makes everyone's starting lineups in here when he hasn't been the Müller that we know for more than a year

Yes, he's the great Thomas Müller, but if he wants to be a starter he needs to play like a starter. His performances in the last year and a half aren't worth of a place in the starting lineup.

And I'm tired of all that "He hasn't been played in his position" thing, because he's been playing literally everywhere with Ancelotti and Löw and still no success

We all assume that Ribery can no longer be a starter in this team, but it's the same case with Müller. The only difference is that Thomas is still young and can improve while RIbery's fitness is decreasing because of his age.


I'll give you the cliff notes version: Müller's past year hasn't been nearly as bad as popular opinion might lead you to believe. Statistically speaking: He's still scoring and assisting at a rate that's directly in-line with his career average (all positions), he's playing at a higher level when he's in his preferred position (behind striker), Lewandowski scores more when Müller is behind him, and as a whole the team statistically performs at their highest level when Müller is in the starting XI behind the striker.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:35 pm

SrLuisGuilherme wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:Can't understand why Müller makes everyone's starting lineups in here when he hasn't been the Müller that we know for more than a year

Yes, he's the great Thomas Müller, but if he wants to be a starter he needs to play like a starter. His performances in the last year and a half aren't worth of a place in the starting lineup.

And I'm tired of all that "He hasn't been played in his position" thing, because he's been playing literally everywhere with Ancelotti and Löw and still no success

We all assume that Ribery can no longer be a starter in this team, but it's the same case with Müller. The only difference is that Thomas is still young and can improve while RIbery's fitness is decreasing because of his age.

funny because there isn't anyone that deserves the place more than him IMO. Coman? Inconsistency defines him so far. James? He only just got here and has proved nothing yet. He also hasn't played at his usual level for more than a season at RM. Ribéry? Only thing he does these days are some fancy tricks with the ball. Thiago? AM is not where he should be playing. Basically we have only two players that have their spots guaranteed in the starting XI, Lewy and Robben (who can't even stay fit for a very long time). Müller form isn't his best, true. But he's been contributing for other things on the pitch as well, plus he's been arguably our best attacker in preseason. I don't get why he shouldn't be in people's line ups.


Müller is becoming Rooney 2.0,like it ot not.Don't get me wrong.I love this dude,but i'm with Xabi on this one.No player is bigger than the team.
Where is he contributing ? You cant's say thet in 2017 Lewa-Müller connection is working.It's not.Since 2016.Since 2015 his market value dropped with 25 m.This should mean something,right ?Against team with good defence in the last 2 games all that Müller does is the "fancy" heel passing in against teams like Arsenal and the new look MIlan.Yes,he contributed against Wolfratshausen.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:44 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:
SrLuisGuilherme wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:Can't understand why Müller makes everyone's starting lineups in here when he hasn't been the Müller that we know for more than a year

Yes, he's the great Thomas Müller, but if he wants to be a starter he needs to play like a starter. His performances in the last year and a half aren't worth of a place in the starting lineup.

And I'm tired of all that "He hasn't been played in his position" thing, because he's been playing literally everywhere with Ancelotti and Löw and still no success

We all assume that Ribery can no longer be a starter in this team, but it's the same case with Müller. The only difference is that Thomas is still young and can improve while RIbery's fitness is decreasing because of his age.

funny because there isn't anyone that deserves the place more than him IMO. Coman? Inconsistency defines him so far. James? He only just got here and has proved nothing yet. He also hasn't played at his usual level for more than a season at RM. Ribéry? Only thing he does these days are some fancy tricks with the ball. Thiago? AM is not where he should be playing. Basically we have only two players that have their spots guaranteed in the starting XI, Lewy and Robben (who can't even stay fit for a very long time). Müller form isn't his best, true. But he's been contributing for other things on the pitch as well, plus he's been arguably our best attacker in preseason. I don't get why he shouldn't be in people's line ups.


Müller is becoming Rooney 2.0,like it ot not.Don't get me wrong.I love this dude,but i'm with Xabi on this one.No player is bigger than the team.
Where is he contributing ? You cant's say thet in 2017 Lewa-Müller connection is working.It's not.Since 2016.Since 2015 his market value dropped with 25 m.This should mean something,right ?Against team with good defence in the last 2 games all that Müller does is the "fancy" heel passing in against teams like Arsenal and the new look MIlan.Yes,he contributed against Wolfratshausen.


Even in 2016/2017, Lewandowski played his most effective football/scored at his highest rate per 90 when Müller was playing behind him.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:03 pm

What are you talking about pal ? Müller assisted Lewa as secondary striker 4 times for the whole 16/17 Bundesliga season ! You can check the stats if you're not believing me.
Lewa was most effective in the 4-3-3 off. lineup.
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2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:53 pm

Do either of you have the stats to prove their argument? Anyone?
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:13 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:What are you talking about pal ? Müller assisted Lewa as secondary striker 4 times for the whole 16/17 Bundesliga season ! You can check the stats if you're not believing me.
Lewa was most effective in the 4-3-3 off. lineup.


First off - not just about assists.
Second off - You can go ahead and check the stats below

#12 wrote:Do either of you have the stats to prove their argument? Anyone?


Here we go:

Overall, Lewandowski scores at a higher rate with Müller than Thiago - even more so when Müller is playing behind him. By my count, Lewandowski played 29 matches alongside Müller this season. In 29 matches, he scored 30 goals - an average of 1.03 goals scored per match when playing with Müller.

Lewandowski also played 35 matches with Thiago. Now, granted, there's some overlap here as in some matches all three were on the pitch at the same time - but in 35 matches with Thiago on the pitch, Lewandowski scored 31 goals - for an average of 0.89 goals per match.

Perhaps it would be more prudent to compare both Thiago and Müller when they play behind the striker - as it was often posited that Thiago was a better fit there than Müller was this past season. While it's a bit closer, in 14 matches with Müller at CAM, Lewandowski scored 17 goals - 1.2 goals per match. Similarly, in 7 matches with Thiago at CAM, Lewandowski scored 7 goals - 1.0 per match.


Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1: 21 matches / 24 goals = 1.14 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-3-3: 23 matches / 18 goals = 0.78 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1 with Thiago: 1.0 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1 with Müller: 1.2 goals per match
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:14 pm

aterford wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:What are you talking about pal ? Müller assisted Lewa as secondary striker 4 times for the whole 16/17 Bundesliga season ! You can check the stats if you're not believing me.
Lewa was most effective in the 4-3-3 off. lineup.


First off - not just about assists. You're failing to take into account the "assist to the assist", the way certain players free up space for others, how defenses treat one player vs another, etc.
Second off - You can go ahead and check the stats below

#12 wrote:Do either of you have the stats to prove their argument? Anyone?


Here we go:

Overall, Lewandowski scores at a higher rate with Müller than Thiago - even more so when Müller is playing behind him. By my count, Lewandowski played 29 matches alongside Müller this season. In 29 matches, he scored 30 goals - an average of 1.03 goals scored per match when playing with Müller.

Lewandowski also played 35 matches with Thiago. Now, granted, there's some overlap here as in some matches all three were on the pitch at the same time - but in 35 matches with Thiago on the pitch, Lewandowski scored 31 goals - for an average of 0.89 goals per match.

Perhaps it would be more prudent to compare both Thiago and Müller when they play behind the striker - as it was often posited that Thiago was a better fit there than Müller was this past season. While it's a bit closer, in 14 matches with Müller at CAM, Lewandowski scored 17 goals - 1.2 goals per match. Similarly, in 7 matches with Thiago at CAM, Lewandowski scored 7 goals - 1.0 per match.


Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1: 21 matches / 24 goals = 1.14 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-3-3: 23 matches / 18 goals = 0.78 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1 with Thiago: 1.0 goals per match
Lewandowski in 4-2-3-1 with Müller: 1.2 goals per match
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:12 am

You raise a good point. If I get the time I’d certainly like to take a look at that because I too definitely remember times where it felt like Müller couldn’t hit the ball cleanly to save his life and couldn’t score on an open net if it presented itself. But perhaps that’s what makes things look worse – it’s not so much that his raw numbers were so bad, but rather that they could’ve been much better had a few small things here and there went differently,he is not super bad,but how many chances he missed ? Our performance does not suffer when Müller is on the pitch - when he's in the starting XI we're earning just about as many points as when he's not; sometimes more, sometimes less. As i said before,his issues are mental.He should get his head together,and this missed penalty few days ago did not help him.When he's playing good,everybody is happy with him,but when he's playing bad-many people are closing their eyes just because it's Müller.You can't argue on that.
Will all this,i hope that Carlo will be able to get him into the rhythm,and for me this can happen if there is a rotation in the front.He's best at finding open spaces.With James,now we should have move feedom up front.
Müller and James even though on paper will be at wing and centre, will mostly switch positions in between the game.This should give us more flexibility.

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For Müller i think this could work better:

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Coman » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:15 am

Even my grandma knows Müller behind Lewandowski with Thiago and Vidal or Tolisso behind Müller is the best.
Bayern 3-3-3-1 build-up under Heynckes :
Neuer - Boateng Hummels Thiago - Kimmich Vidal Alaba - Robben Müller James - Lewandowski
Neuer- Boateng Vidal Hummels- Kimmich Martinez Alaba- Robben James Ribéry- Lewandowski
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:42 am

Coman wrote:Even my grandma knows Müller behind Lewandowski with Thiago and Vidal or Tolisso behind Müller is the best.


I think she's ready to take Bayern after Carlo. 8)
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:47 am

IsiahRashad wrote:You raise a good point. If I get the time I’d certainly like to take a look at that because I too definitely remember times where it felt like Müller couldn’t hit the ball cleanly to save his life and couldn’t score on an open net if it presented itself. But perhaps that’s what makes things look worse – it’s not so much that his raw numbers were so bad, but rather that they could’ve been much better had a few small things here and there went differently,he is not super bad,but how many chances he missed ? Our performance does not suffer when Müller is on the pitch - when he's in the starting XI we're earning just about as many points as when he's not; sometimes more, sometimes less. As i said before,his issues are mental.He should get his head together,and this missed penalty few days ago did not help him.When he's playing good,everybody is happy with him,but when he's playing bad-many people are closing their eyes just because it's Müller.You can't argue on that.
Will all this,i hope that Carlo will be able to get him into the rhythm,and for me this can happen if there is a rotation in the front.He's best at finding open spaces.With James,now we should have move feedom up front.
Müller and James even though on paper will be at wing and centre, will mostly switch positions in between the game.This should give us more flexibility.

Image

For Müller i think this could work better:

Image


Yes I'd tend to agree with most of that. There's two things for me: 1. Müller wasn't bad in 2016/2017. His 2015/2016 season gave people inflated (unrealistic?) expectations. 2. Müller certainly did miss chances and had bad games. He could've had a truly great season if a few shots fell a couple inches one way or another, if he gets clean shots off, etc. As you said (quoting me lol) it's not so much that he was poor but that there was a lot of "what could have beens". I do agree that Müller tends to get a pass from some people (though I feel that some targeted him specifically for this reason), but on the whole I think Müller had a good, not great season and I certainly wouldn't blame any of our struggles on him.
Your lineup linked is exactly how'd I'd send them out too.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:24 am

Now,after we have reached consensus,It is time for Carlo to look at the forum. :D
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:09 pm

If we were to play or 4-3-2-1 as we thought a couple of weeks ago, that would clearly benefit Müller IMO


But if we play 4-2-3-1 he would be eligible for two positons, CAM and RW.


- To play CAM he would be competing with James and probably even Thiago

- To play RW he would be competing with Robben


In the first case, James best position is CAM and he was nº1 in Carlo's shopping list. So regardless of what we think about him (and I think he's gonna be a massive signing), it looks likely that he will be given a starting position in the lineup

In the second case I might be biased, but Robben has been performing at a great level for years while Müller hasn't contributed for more than 12 months. I can't see a good reason to favour Müller over Arjen


And what makes it worse, Müller has never adapted to Carlo's tactics.


-----------------


Regarding those stats... Stats are always important, but football is not the NBA. If you just look at the stats you might think that Mario Götze was pure class in his first season with FC Bayern

34 games played (18 as sub)
19 goals
14 assissts

But we know that's simply not true, because we saw the games.
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