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2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:39 am

Bentonomo wrote:
aterford wrote: Thiago was indisputably better in big games last year. Fact.
You can't say "start Müller because he's proven in big games and Thiago always chokes in big games" when last season Müller was the one who utterly choked in every important match. Thiago might not have played at his best but at least he showed up.


He wasn't even in his natural position, it is a bit unfair to compare Thiago's best season vs muller's worst.


Thiago was also indisputably better at CAM than Müller was when he played CAM this year, too..if you wanna make it apples to apples.

Again: you would have to be clinically insane to bench Thiago right now. Absolutely asinine.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:31 am

my ideal formation is this :

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby La Bestia Negra » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:01 am

Has anyone noticed what formation Ancelotti's used during the preseason friendlies?
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Bentonomo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:34 am

aterford wrote:
Bentonomo wrote:
aterford wrote: Thiago was indisputably better in big games last year. Fact.
You can't say "start Müller because he's proven in big games and Thiago always chokes in big games" when last season Müller was the one who utterly choked in every important match. Thiago might not have played at his best but at least he showed up.


He wasn't even in his natural position, it is a bit unfair to compare Thiago's best season vs muller's worst.


Thiago was also indisputably better at CAM than Müller was when he played CAM this year, too..if you wanna make it apples to apples.

Again: you would have to be clinically insane to bench Thiago right now. Absolutely asinine.


He should always play in bundesliga, but in champions well i have my doubts, maybe its a matter of personal preferences.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Coman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:37 am

Why talking about playing Thiago at CAM or playing Müller at CAM ? The best Bayern this season, the less boring (except one game vs Leipzig), was the one where both were playing, Thiago CM, Müller AM.

La Bestia Negra wrote:Has anyone noticed what formation Ancelotti's used during the preseason friendlies?



Was a 4-1-3-2 / 4-4-2 but he hasn't the all squad and had to do with what he had in the hand.
Last edited by Coman on Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
For good football : Neuer - Kimmich, Boateng, Hummels, Alaba - Vidal (Tolisso), Thiago (Rudy) - Robben, Müller (James), James (Ribéry) - Lewandowski

For boring football : 4-3-3
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby nm462272 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:12 am

La Bestia Negra wrote:Has anyone noticed what formation Ancelotti's used during the preseason friendlies?


has looked to me like the old standard 4-2-3-1, although he may have started the first game with a 2-striker formation
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Coman wrote:Why talking about playing Thiago at CAM or playing Müller at CAM ? The best Bayern this season, the less boring (except one game vs Leipzig), was the one where both were playing, Thiago CM, Müller AM.

La Bestia Negra wrote:Has anyone noticed what formation Ancelotti's used during the preseason friendlies?



Was a 4-1-3-2 / 4-4-2 but he hasn't the all squad and had to do with what he had in the hand.


Exactly, I am still of the opinion that our strongest lineup features both Thiago and Müller.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby nm462272 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:12 pm

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby bastos80 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:18 pm

Swap Thiago and Vidal.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Coman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:19 pm

Thiago isnt a regista... he would fail here with his way to play and take risk
For good football : Neuer - Kimmich, Boateng, Hummels, Alaba - Vidal (Tolisso), Thiago (Rudy) - Robben, Müller (James), James (Ribéry) - Lewandowski

For boring football : 4-3-3
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby #12 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:20 pm

Coman wrote:Thiago isnt a regista... he would fail here with his way to play and take risk


And Vidal is?
Someone, fire that Italian **** already! I don't care who, I don't care how much it costs or who'll be the next coach - just make sure he's gone and he stays gone!!!
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby JANCKER » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:59 pm

I like the Christmas tree but won't happen. Muller will not start in the big games unless there are injuries.

It's funny because some think that his forte are important games.

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby aterford » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:33 am

#12 wrote:
Coman wrote:Thiago isnt a regista... he would fail here with his way to play and take risk


And Vidal is?


Lol, this.

Thiago is the best regista in our squad right now. Great vision, great technique, great passing, good long ball, able to switch play, good defensive workrate, and was our midfield's best tackler last season.
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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:50 am

aterford wrote:
#12 wrote:
Coman wrote:Thiago isnt a regista... he would fail here with his way to play and take risk


And Vidal is?


Lol, this.

Thiago is the best regista in our squad right now. Great vision, great technique, great passing, good long ball, able to switch play, good defensive workrate, and was our midfield's best tackler last season.

Don't forget Seba Rudy

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Re: 2017/18 Tactics & Formations Thread

Postby Manchu » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:56 am

[
aterford wrote:Thiago was also indisputably better at CAM than Müller was when he played CAM this year, too..if you wanna make it apples to apples.

Again: you would have to be clinically insane to bench Thiago right now. Absolutely asinine.

I dispute what you claim as indisputable. Thiago was brilliant this season and it would be clinically insane to remove him from our starting lineup, but the idea that he was some sort of world beating 10 that we should bench Muller for is rather strange, and I don't understand for it ever took hold.

As the main job as a 10 is more or less to help the striker score goals, perhaps there is no better way to compare Thiago's and Muller's contributions in that position is by looking at the quantity of open field goals that Lewandowski scored last season which each player played directly behind him.

Lewandowski played 1267 minutes in the Bundesliga this season with Muller behind him as a secondary striker. In that time, he scored 17 "open field"(not scored from the penalty spot or directly from one of his trademark free kicks). For comparison, in the 1510 minutes he played in the Bundesliga without Muller behind him, he managed only 6 goals from open play(in the entire Bundesliga season, he also scored 5 penalties and 2 direct free kicks).

To make this simple, when Muller was playing behind Lewandowski, it took Lewandowski 74.5 minutes on average to score an "open field" goal. When Muller was not playing behind Lewandowski, it took Lewandowski 251.7 minutes to score an open field goal. This incredible difference, even when attempting to adjust for the variable strength of opponents, is hard to explain through anything other Muller playing
behind the striker having a strong positive influence on Lewandowski scoring.

Muller only played 17 minutes behind Lewandowski in the Champions League and 11 behind him in the DFB-Pokal. Lewandowski managed to score on neither occasion, but its very hard to conclude anything from such limited time.

Lewandowski played 294 minutes with Thiago behind him as a 10 in the Bundesliga, and never once scored an "open field" goal, although he did manage to score several penalties and a really kickass direct free kick.

Lewandowski also played 240 minutes with Thiago directly behind him in the Champions League, and scored only one open field goal.

Finally, Lewandowski played 259 minutes with Thiago as 10 in the DFB-Pokal, and managed to score 2 open field goals, both against Schalke.

Interestingly, if we add all these minutes and goals together, which we shouldn't because they come from different competitions and against teams of a very wide difference in quality, we find that it took Lewandowski 264.3 minutes to score an open field goal when Thiago was playing behind him across all competitions, very similar to average I calculated for Lewandowski's Bundesliga without Muller.

Of course, none of this completely conclusive. Thiago generally played as an attacking mid against better teams(although you argue that only Real Madrid, Dortmund, and RB Leipzig really belong to that category; Arsenal most certainly doesn't) than Muller did due to the policies of a certain Carlo Ancelotti, so its unclear how directly we can compare the results created by the two players.

However, I would like to point out that, in the games that we did play with Thiago as a 10, we seemed dependent on good wingplay and high pressing to create chances. When we ran into a team that wasn't vulnerable to those, we got knocked out of the Champions League in short order.

Moreover, as far as I can tell, Thiago's good reputation as a 10 this season is entirely dependent on two really good home games he had against Arsenal and RB Leipzig. It must be pointed out, however brilliant Thiago's play was in those two games, they were against teams that we almost certainly would have beaten anyways, and quite likely beaten badly, if we had played Muller as 10, Thiago as Regista, and Alonso as benchwarmer because we both had home field advantage and a strong player quality advantage.

Perhaps a reference to our three games against Wolfsburg this season shall prove illuminating:
12/10/16 Bundesliga 5-0 H(Muller as 10, Thiago as regista), 2/7/17 DFB-Pokal 1-0 H(Thiago as 10, Alonso as Regista), 4/29/17 Bundesliga 6-0 A(Muller as 10, Thiago as regista).


Finally, all of this does make me wonder a bit about Muller's struggle in the lone forward position this season. Although it was very wrong for the board and Ancelotti to expect him to be able to perform well in a position that he has only rarely played in his career(and at best been inconsistent there when he does), it does seem like part of the problem could be that Muller was expected to perform holdup play, create chances, get on the end of crosses, drop into the midfield to help buildup, and finish chances with very little support from the rest of the team(Ribery is the only whose playing style strikes me as directly helpful).

tl;dr
Mullerdowski was alive and well last season and Mullerdowski+James(JML? Jallerdowski?) is very strong basis to build our offense around.
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