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Re: English football

Postby itisrising » Sat May 14, 2016 12:55 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:
itisrising wrote:Well if we look at Bayern, and you guys are the experts, it looks as though you take the top talents from your league that your rivals produce. Yes you have a German core but that has more to do with the fact that Germany is producing more talent and that you're the biggest club in Germany with the most financial capability e.g. Sanches for 60M.


Yeah, we do that now, but how do you think we got the financial capability and attraction power to the best players in the Bundesliga in the first place? It's ridiculous to compare that to City's very recent money injection. All the super clubs, the name and stature building were done decades ago and you guys are just getting started. Now it looks like you're saying we are successful because we buy the best players. Don't be silly.



That wasn't my point. My point was to illustrate how big clubs in general don't act in the most moral of ways. While it's been stated that it's unfair that we received all this money, I find it equally, if not more, unfair that Bayern prise away all the top talents in Germany to limit their rivals chances of growing. I understand that we had a recent money injection but many clubs, all over the world, have turned their fortunes around after a takeover. We've been the most recent example in English football but people tend to forget the past and history of certain clubs.
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Re: English football

Postby MUTU » Sat May 14, 2016 1:02 am

itisrising wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:
itisrising wrote:Well if we look at Bayern, and you guys are the experts, it looks as though you take the top talents from your league that your rivals produce. Yes you have a German core but that has more to do with the fact that Germany is producing more talent and that you're the biggest club in Germany with the most financial capability e.g. Sanches for 60M.


Yeah, we do that now, but how do you think we got the financial capability and attraction power to the best players in the Bundesliga in the first place? It's ridiculous to compare that to City's very recent money injection. All the super clubs, the name and stature building were done decades ago and you guys are just getting started. Now it looks like you're saying we are successful because we buy the best players. Don't be silly.



That wasn't my point. My point was to illustrate how big clubs in general don't act in the most moral of ways. While it's been stated that it's unfair that we received all this money, I find it equally, if not more, unfair that Bayern prise away all the top talents in Germany to limit their rivals chances of growing. I understand that we had a recent money injection but many clubs, all over the world, have turned their fortunes around after a takeover. We've been the most recent example in English football but people tend to forget the past and history of certain clubs.

Can you please name these talents that we bought from Bundesliga clubs? I will save you the trouble and name them all.

Neuer, starting goalkeeper
Ulreich, second goalkeeper who VfB wanted to get rid of
Götze, childhood Bayern fan
Kimmich, who doesn't really count because he spent some 20 mins on Stuttgart's player list since they triggered a buy back clause on him just so they could immediately sell to Bayern. So as such Bayern obtained him from RB Leipzig in the 2nd division.

Where are these players we bought from Germany then? I bet Man City have at least 3 times more professionals bought from Premier League clubs.
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Re: English football

Postby itisrising » Sat May 14, 2016 1:05 am

MUTU wrote:
itisrising wrote:[quote="#12"

Yeah right... :roll:

Just that

1.) We have almost half a team of homegrowns... Starters...
2.) "our" money comes not out of nowhere... Somebody giving you anything for free? I mean, it's not like you deserve your food when you just use > money you worked for yourself < to buy it... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Well if we look at Bayern, and you guys are the experts, it looks as though you take the top talents from your league that your rivals produce. Yes you have a German core but that has more to do with the fact that Germany is producing more talent and that you're the biggest club in Germany with the most financial capability e.g. Sanches for 60M.

We have exactly one outfield player (Goetze) who we bought from a Bundesliga club. Find me another Bundesliga club that has less. Maybe you should inform yourself a bit better and not believe the media campaign. Götze is the only purchase. And he was a childhood Bayern fan. Lewandowski was a free agent, as was Rode. The rest are either homegrown (11 out of our 32 professionals) or bought from other leagues (notably 5 from Spain).[/quote]

Neuer counts. As does Ulreich. Boateng had a stop over season with us before signing for you guys. Kimmich. Lewandowski, for all intents and purposes, was a Dortmund player. As was Mats Hummels who will join up with you next season. You signed Rode on a pre agreement beforehand. And If I recall correctly, you were also very interested in De Bruyne.

My point in all of this is that that can't be considering fair. You attack us because you find it unfair that we had a successful takeover while the same can be said for your club. No big club acts in 100% fair manner but that's just how it is.
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Re: English football

Postby MUTU » Sat May 14, 2016 1:12 am

You are really clutching at straws arguing about Boateng. So are you saying a team should never buy a player who once upon a time played in the same league? Also I hope you realise that Hummels spent 13 years at Bayern. He is now coming back home. And Kimmich I already explained. He didn't really come from a Bundesliga club but from the 2nd division. Stuttgart simply triggered a clause that allowed them to get a share from the transfer of the player.

Tell me now, how many players do Man City have with a professional contract who they signed from other Premier League clubs. Do you hit the two digits?
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Re: English football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:20 am

itisrising wrote:My point in all of this is that that can't be considering fair. You attack us because you find it unfair that we had a successful takeover while the same can be said for your club. No big club acts in 100% fair manner but that's just how it is.


Nope, Bayern was never taken over. Takeovers are more of an English and Spanish thing because they're actually smart in Germany.

Apart from the fact that it's a pure hateful English bollocks (I live in England and it makes me sick, but I embrace it now) that Bayern buy all the talents in the Bundesliga, I think the argument that this is unfair is not valid at all. It's what clubs do, small or big.

We pay money for the players we buy and if Dortmund were smart, the money would be invested to in such a way to alleviate the supposed damage from the player being bought. After all, the total asset they have is the same regardless of if a player is bought or not - if he's bought, they get money in return. How is that unfair?

The moral point is rubbish because it's literally how the competition is played. You get players from somewhere and it can't all be from youth. Clubs buy from domestic rivals all the time. In fact, the smaller the club the more they will spend domestically because they don't have as much power to attract bigger foreign talents.

City have bought players from Arsenal and Liverpool amongst others. These clubs are directly competing for a similar league position as you. I'm not saying you're just as "unfair" or "immoral" as us, I'm saying none of us are. It's all normal practice.
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Re: English football

Postby MUTU » Sat May 14, 2016 1:23 am

We have 11 out of 32 in our first team squad who have come through our youth team. That's over a third. Man City have exactly one, and their fan is calling our transfer policy unfair. This is epic!
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Re: English football

Postby itisrising » Sat May 14, 2016 1:27 am

MUTU wrote:You are really clutching at straws arguing about Boateng. So are you saying a team should never buy a player who once upon a time played in the same league? Also I hope you realise that Hummels spent 13 years at Bayern. He is now coming back home. And Kimmich I already explained. He didn't really come from a Bundesliga club but from the 2nd division. Stuttgart simply triggered a clause that allowed them to get a share from the transfer of the player.

Tell me now, how many players do Man City have with a professional contract who they signed from other Premier League clubs. Do you hit the two digits?


We currently have 6.

Hummels, though a fan, is a massive player for your main rivals. Taking him, Lewandowski and Gotze from your main rivals that developed them is considered unfair to most people. They were arguably their best players at the time you bought them.

My whole point is that you can't simply state that it was unfair that we received all this money from the takeover and ignore the fact that your club has acted unfairly in the transfer market. All big clubs act unfairly at times, it's how it is.
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Re: English football

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:28 am

Sagna
Clichy
Nasri
Sterling
The ones that come to mind atm...

By the way pls take care of our beerman

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Re: English football

Postby MUTU » Sat May 14, 2016 1:32 am

itisrising wrote:
MUTU wrote:You are really clutching at straws arguing about Boateng. So are you saying a team should never buy a player who once upon a time played in the same league? Also I hope you realise that Hummels spent 13 years at Bayern. He is now coming back home. And Kimmich I already explained. He didn't really come from a Bundesliga club but from the 2nd division. Stuttgart simply triggered a clause that allowed them to get a share from the transfer of the player.

Tell me now, how many players do Man City have with a professional contract who they signed from other Premier League clubs. Do you hit the two digits?


We currently have 6.

Hummels, though a fan, is a massive player for your main rivals. Taking him, Lewandowski and Gotze from your main rivals that developed them is considered unfair to most people. They were arguably their best players at the time you bought them.

My whole point is that you can't simply state that it was unfair that we received all this money from the takeover and ignore the fact that your club has acted unfairly in the transfer market. All big clubs act unfairly at times, it's how it is.

Well not only did you buy more players than us from your domestic rivals (including 3 top Arsenal players), you did it with money that wasn't rightfully yours. All the while providing nothing to football with only one player in your first team squad coming through your youth academy.
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Re: English football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:33 am

Unless a player is literally kidnapped and forced to terminate his running contract at gunpoint so he can transfer to the kidnapping club for free, it's not unfair. Clubs pay a mutually agreed fee between the two parties in a transfer. The selling club are aware that their player is leaving and have probably evaluated the impact of the transfer, and they're receiving their asking price for the player. It's perfectly fair.

Next time an Arsenal fan fires at you about Nasri and Clichy again, use my argument.
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Re: English football

Postby MUTU » Sat May 14, 2016 1:34 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:Unless a player is literally kidnapped and forced to terminate his running contract at gunpoint so he can transfer to the kidnapping club for free, it's not unfair. Clubs pay a mutually agreed fee between the two parties in a transfer. The selling club are aware that their player is leaving and have probably evaluated the impact of the transfer, and they're receiving their asking price for the player. It's perfectly fair.

Next time an Arsenal fan fires at you about Nasri and Clichy again, use my argument.

Don't forget Sagna
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Re: English football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:35 am

Well Sagna was a free transfer (I think?). Regardless it's all fair.
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Re: English football

Postby itisrising » Sat May 14, 2016 1:38 am

MUTU wrote:
itisrising wrote:
MUTU wrote:You are really clutching at straws arguing about Boateng. So are you saying a team should never buy a player who once upon a time played in the same league? Also I hope you realise that Hummels spent 13 years at Bayern. He is now coming back home. And Kimmich I already explained. He didn't really come from a Bundesliga club but from the 2nd division. Stuttgart simply triggered a clause that allowed them to get a share from the transfer of the player.

Tell me now, how many players do Man City have with a professional contract who they signed from other Premier League clubs. Do you hit the two digits?


We currently have 6.

Hummels, though a fan, is a massive player for your main rivals. Taking him, Lewandowski and Gotze from your main rivals that developed them is considered unfair to most people. They were arguably their best players at the time you bought them.

My whole point is that you can't simply state that it was unfair that we received all this money from the takeover and ignore the fact that your club has acted unfairly in the transfer market. All big clubs act unfairly at times, it's how it is.

Well not only did you buy more players than us from your domestic rivals (including 3 top Arsenal players), you did it with money that wasn't rightfully yours. All the while providing nothing to football with only one player in your first team squad coming through your youth academy.


That's clearly not far more when you have soon to be 5. And my point is most clubs didn't begin self sufficiently. They had a takeover and grew in stature as a result. Ours is just recent.

When it comes to youth players, we've produced very good players e.g. Denis Suarez, Sturridge, Iheanacho etc. Now we have many players ready to take the step up, the issue has been the manager's unwillingness to trust the youth e.g. loaning out Belgium international Jason Denayer and keeping Demichelis. That's one reason we've all been craving Guardiola to come here and give them a chance. Iheanacho is a great player but there were many players in the U21's just as good and our U18's are national champions and are far ahead of the pack alongside Chelsea.
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Re: English football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 14, 2016 1:42 am

itisrising wrote:And my point is most clubs didn't begin self sufficiently.


I don't meant to keep retorting just for the sake of it, but Bayern did :P
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Re: English football

Postby itisrising » Sat May 14, 2016 1:43 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:Unless a player is literally kidnapped and forced to terminate his running contract at gunpoint so he can transfer to the kidnapping club for free, it's not unfair. Clubs pay a mutually agreed fee between the two parties in a transfer. The selling club are aware that their player is leaving and have probably evaluated the impact of the transfer, and they're receiving their asking price for the player. It's perfectly fair.

Next time an Arsenal fan fires at you about Nasri and Clichy again, use my argument.


Yes it's mutally acceptable after you make the player want to join your club and hand in a transfer request. Remember announcing Gotze on the eve of a huge match. Bayern have attempted to destabilise Dortmund which is what can be perceived as unfair. And surely if this is fair, owners coming in and taking over a club should be also considered normal practice?
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