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Spanish football

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Re: Spanish football

Postby YlonenXabi » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:34 pm

It was a great shot, but Ter Stegen should've done better [-X
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Re: Spanish football

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:39 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:It was a great shot, but Ter Stegen should've done better [-X
He was petrified like everyone of us...
Now look at Benz goal...
Unbelievable...
Both Barca and Real are amazing... but in the opposite way

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Re: Spanish football

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:44 pm

This year Real are one level higher. Wow. And can somebody told me, what medicine is Modric using, because it's looking like he's getting younger, not older by the time.

Barca are clueless how to play football at the moment, they don't want to admit it, but that MSN can't be replaced.

Also, Iniesta is done, Suarez is losing form since 2015 and there's only one man left - Messi.

The future doesn't look too bright for them.

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Re: Spanish football

Postby Achilles » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:53 pm

Take Messi out of Barca and they are on par with Sevilla. They are on a downhill in the last two years mostly because of transfer policy but it will get worse untilMessi comes up with divine stats they will struggle hard.Real looks unstoppable their confidence is ridiculous .
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Re: Spanish football

Postby YlonenXabi » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:58 pm

Well, I don't think Suarez has been going downhill. He still seems like the best #9 to me

Real Madrid is too god, but Barcelona is NOT that bad.

1- They have a new coach
2- They are going to add Coutinho + Dembele. We are talking about a radical change here.


This Barça looks nothing like it wil look in a few weeks. This is just last season's version but without Neymar.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby America USA » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:45 am

America USA wrote:This maybe slightly off topic but I personally think Barcelona are on the decline.

Messi and Suarez are both 30. Pique, Mascherano, Alba, Iniesta and Busquets are all getting older. I don't think Neymar is the loyal type and I see him doing a Figo and jumping ship to any team that offers him more money. Not saying Real Madrid but maybe someone like PSG or even United .

The newer crop of Barcelona midfielders just don't seem good enough and talented Spanish players are choosing Madrid over Barcelona.

Once Messi and his generation goes I think Barcelona will struggle and could very well be back to their 90s obscurity, at least on the Champions League scene. Real Madrid's stock has risen immensely after their recent CL success. If Real can domestically win more often in the next three to four years then Barcelona will suffer even more. Once Barcelona starts losing their overseas popularity it could do a lot of damage to them.

In the same vein it's good for Bayern that Bundesliga is trying to grow in overseas markets and it is imperative for Bayern to win the CL before 2020 to keep up with Real Madrid's overseas popularity.


:coffee:

I don't think Liverpool and Dortmund are gonna sell Coutinho and Dembele respectively for anything less than £100m at this point. Uefalona is doomed. I will be one of the happiest man on earth to see the demise of this despicable and vile club. They make Real Madrid look good with their diving and dirty tricks.

I'd like them in our CL group as I had said in the CL thread. A group of Barcelona, Tottenham and Feyenoord will mentally prepare us for the KO stages.

Meanwhile, Real are on a different level. I would not want to face them until possibly the Final. I don't know who can stop them. They have now outclassed Juventus, Atletico, Uniteda and Barcelona.

P.S. Bayern can fill in the void that Barcelona will leave as far as global popularity and competing against Real Madrid in the CL is concerned.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby FCB general » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:20 am

Barcelona replay from 2012/2013, too much depending on Messi results Neymar departure and poor results, poor performance and no transfer targets.


Real are on their way to win the Treble, the only thing they're missing. With these kind of style they can win the CL all over again. Asensio has been really great in the last 2 years, imagine what he would be like if he played far more. But it's never too late to convert Bale into a rotation player and give Spaniard opportunity to show what he knows.

Real midfield are remind me on our in 2012/2013, pure demonstration of power and dominance, a master piece. Only that Bayern would handle and deal with this Real and nobody else. :|
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Re: Spanish football

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:17 am

YlonenXabi wrote:Well, I don't think Suarez has been going downhill. He still seems like the best #9 to me

Real Madrid is too god, but Barcelona is NOT that bad.

1- They have a new coach
2- They are going to add Coutinho + Dembele. We are talking about a radical change here.


This Barça looks nothing like it wil look in a few weeks. This is just last season's version but without Neymar.
Virtually the same Barca side without Neymar defeated Madrid at the Bernabeau not that far back , and now they lost to them without Ronaldo, Bale, Isco or Casemiro. It wasn't just the 2-0 scoreline , it was the manner of the capitulation that is very bothersome. This Barca team are clearly short on confidence and mojo against a champion side that were motivated to inflict pain. During times like these you need clear vision, character and leadership and that's lacking in Barcelona at the moment.

I'm not sure how bad they are looking but :
There's no way that they can get both Coutihno and Dembele. Liverpool doesn't want to sell at any cost, I'm not sure about Dembele though.
Barca board signed badly, didn't get rid of the dead wood and they don't renew the squad properly.

On the other hand, Real are on the other side. They invest in an old legend for the club, give him license to coach the junior team, re-sign back youth players, purchase players at affordable prices only, trust youth players, reward trust in youth coach by promoting him to first team even though he has no experience with top flight football, pay most attention to midfield perfomance.

Also, in a short time they lose Dani Alves and Neymar. Pique has been overrated for me in the last couple of seasons,Busquets with less than 60% possession is useless. He is not that big of a factor. The players around him like Iniesta and Rakitic are spent force. Gomez is trash, Mascherano is what Alonso was for us in the last 2 seasons, Arda and Deulofeu are not players who can turn one game. And who left? Messi and Suarez.

And PSG was trolling Barca during the game.

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Re: Spanish football

Postby Pelin » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 am

Most of their key players are over 30. After all, Messi has 2-3 years at highest level at maximum. he already declined in the last few years.

United is not a team of high level, Juve had a weak midfield, while Barca's midfield is even weaker than Juve's. Not much will change even if they sign both Coutinho and Dembele, which is a big doubt for me. since they don't have transfer budget to sign both.

After all, l admire Zidane as a coach. He is a real coach. Not someone like Pep, who is so much overrated. l wish Ancelotti could learn something from him about rotation players. since he knows how to get the maximum out of them and they keep developing.

if you have a good organization and midfield who can control the game, even not quality players can outperform.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby YlonenXabi » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:21 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:Virtually the same Barca side without Neymar defeated Madrid at the Bernabeau not that far back , and now they lost to them without Ronaldo, Bale, Isco or Casemiro. It wasn't just the 2-0 scoreline , it was the manner of the capitulation that is very bothersome. This Barca team are clearly short on confidence and mojo against a champion side that were motivated to inflict pain. During times like these you need clear vision, character and leadership and that's lacking in Barcelona at the moment.


There are big differences between those 2 games

Barca was fighting for the league (and eliminated from CL). They were motivated.
Real was actually the better team in that match, but Messi scored a beautiful goal in the final minute.


Yesterday Barça knew they had no chance to come back from a 1-3 home defeat, so Valverde was trying new things. They played with a back 3 and with some mediocre players like Sergi Roberto or Andre Gomes. They failed, but that's not the real Barça team that we will see in a few weeks, trust me. After all it was just the Super Cup and we are still in August

Some people here are talking like Barça is the biggest sh!t club in the world, but they're also saying that Bayern might be capable of defeat this Real Madrid team.

Well, I don't think we've looked any better than Barça did yesterday to be honest







I remember 2014/2015 season. The season after La Decima.

Barça fans were calling for Luis Enrique's head in October after poor results and performances while Real was in top form with Modric, James and Kroos playing some beautiful football

In the end Barça won the treble and Madrid finished with zero titles.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby America USA » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:34 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:I remember 2014/2015 season. The season after La Decima.

Barça fans were calling for Luis Enrique's head in October after poor results and performances while Real was in top form with Modric, James and Kroos playing some beautiful football

In the end Barça won the treble and Madrid finished with zero titles.


That's just wishful thinking. They had the MSN back then. Alves. Mascherano and Iniesta were still younger and Xavi was there.

Barca look like a spent force. They might challenge for La Liga but Real are a class above anyone right now. I highly doubt they'll get both Coutinho and Dembele. They might have to overspend that €222m. Over the years that relied too much on the exceptional duo of Xavi and Iniesta. Then during Enrique's reign it was into the MSN to get the job done. They had no transition plan after their golden generation aged and made it worse by signing crap players. The writing is on the wall. Uefalona is on their way down, I always suspected something like this could happen once Messi started getting old. Barca will be back to their pre 2005 status.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:54 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Yesterday Barça knew they had no chance to come back from a 1-3 home defeat, so Valverde was trying new things. They played with a back 3 and with some mediocre players like Sergi Roberto or Andre Gomes. They failed, but that's not the real Barça team that we will see in a few weeks, trust me. After all it was just the Super Cup and we are still in August

Some people here are talking like Barça is the biggest sh!t club in the world, but they're also saying that Bayern might be capable of defeat this Real Madrid team.

Nothing Valverde has shown has shown so far has been convincing. Tactically, motivation, fitness, recruitment...all weak as ****.

And they can lose the fan fovourites Samper and Roberto because of him.Moral is completely shot. You had Iniesta saying 300m cannot replace Neymar.

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For me,this is the weakest Barca team from the..i don't know,maybe 2003/04 season.


Well,at the moment Real are playing on all cylinders.No doubt about it.Bayern can't beat them at the moment.Juventus cant.Barca cant.At the moment.
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Re: Spanish football

Postby YlonenXabi » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:11 pm

I'm not saying Barça is gonna win the treble

What I'm saying is that this Barça team that was easily torn apart by Real Madrid is not the real FC Barcelona. So yes, if you talk about THAT Barcelona, then you are right. They are sh!t and a hopeless team

I don't know if they will sign both Coutinho and Dembele, but they are trying everything to sign both and

- Coutinho handed over his transfer request
- Dembele is isolated from the team

So they might sign both for an estimate of 220/240M

I'm sure Barcelona will be competitive this season and they can win any title. League, Spanish Cup and CL. Just give some time to their new coach and wait for the big transfers to happen.


The main concern for Barcelona isn't this season but in the long term. They have a pretty old team and they will need to spend big to replace players like Messi, Suarez, Pique and co. Neymar was supposed to be their go to guy once Messi is over, but he's gone :D



Oh and btw, Luis Suarez is out for 4-5 weeks :o
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Re: Spanish football

Postby #12 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:22 am

America USA wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:I remember 2014/2015 season. The season after La Decima.

Barça fans were calling for Luis Enrique's head in October after poor results and performances while Real was in top form with Modric, James and Kroos playing some beautiful football

In the end Barça won the treble and Madrid finished with zero titles.


That's just wishful thinking. They had the MSN back then. Alves. Mascherano and Iniesta were still younger and Xavi was there.

Barca look like a spent force. They might challenge for La Liga but Real are a class above anyone right now. I highly doubt they'll get both Coutinho and Dembele. They might have to overspend that €222m. Over the years that relied too much on the exceptional duo of Xavi and Iniesta. Then during Enrique's reign it was into the MSN to get the job done. They had no transition plan after their golden generation aged and made it worse by signing crap players. The writing is on the wall. Uefalona is on their way down, I always suspected something like this could happen once Messi started getting old. Barca will be back to their pre 2005 status.


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Re: Spanish football

Postby Manchu » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:50 am

YlonenXabi wrote:I'm not saying Barça is gonna win the treble

What I'm saying is that this Barça team that was easily torn apart by Real Madrid is not the real FC Barcelona. So yes, if you talk about THAT Barcelona, then you are right. They are sh!t and a hopeless team

I don't know if they will sign both Coutinho and Dembele, but they are trying everything to sign both and

- Coutinho handed over his transfer request
- Dembele is isolated from the team

So they might sign both for an estimate of 220/240M

I'm sure Barcelona will be competitive this season and they can win any title. League, Spanish Cup and CL. Just give some time to their new coach and wait for the big transfers to happen.


The main concern for Barcelona isn't this season but in the long term. They have a pretty old team and they will need to spend big to replace players like Messi, Suarez, Pique and co. Neymar was supposed to be their go to guy once Messi is over, but he's gone :D



Oh and btw, Luis Suarez is out for 4-5 weeks :o

The reports of Barcelona's demise are greatly exaggerated; in fact, they played far better over the two legs then anyone gives them credit for.

In order to demonstrate this, I need to bring up a statistical concept that is gradually going mainstream: expected goals. This is an attempt to measure, based on shot location, body part used to take the shot, and whether a chance is considered to be a "big chance" or not(at least in some models), the actual quality of shots taken and, hence, how many goals a team can be "expected" to score from the quality of chances it got in a given game. If you want a more detailed explanation, this site has a fairly easy to understand rundown.

Expected goals has a wide variety of statistical uses, but the most pertinent one for our purposes is it allows us to see after the match how likely or unlikely the score line of a game is.

A good example come from the Confederations Cup Final(unfortunately, you'll have to click on this tweet in order to see the information from expected goals plot).
Can't see tweet? Click here!
ttt
You can see here that Germany had a total expected goals of 1.95, while Chile only had 1.55, despite Chile having 18 shots while Germany only had 8, because the quality of Germany's shots was greater. Thus, a Germany victory in that game was more likely than a Chile victory, and indeed it happened.

However, because luck, the game doesn't always go the way that expected goals suggests. One example of that is our away game against Leverkusan last season.
Can't see tweet? Click here!
There, you can see that we created a lot of good chances in that game and accumulated 2.25 expected goals vs Leverkusen's 0.41, but just couldn't finish.

How does all of this relate to Barcelona vs Real Madrid?

Simple. In the first leg, Barcelona, despite losing the game 3-1, managed to accumulate 2.11 expected goals to Real Madrid's 1.1.
Can't see tweet? Click here!

In the second leg, Barcelona, despite losing the game 2-0, had 2.18 expected goals to Real Madrid's 1.21.
Can't see tweet? Click here!
An astute observer might notice that Barcelona began dominating the game the moment that they switched from a three in the back formation to a four in the back formation, suggesting that a lot of their problems in the first half of the game were formation inflicted. This matched what I saw when I watched the game.

Anyways, to summarize it, over the two legs Real Madrid beat Barcelona 5-1, but Barcelona accumulated 4.29 expected goals to Real Madrid's 2.31 expected goals. Barcelona's woos stemmed from three separate problems:
1) Pique decided to score an own goal
2) Messi and Suarez couldn't finish
3) Real Madrid scored from three very low probability shots.

Of these, 1) is not a likely to be permanent problem because Pique maybe has two or three own goals in his career(although the one he scored for us will always be priceless), 2) is unlikely to be a major problem in the future because Messi and Suarez are generally very good finishers, and 3) might be somewhat of a problem in the future but probably won't be unless Robben rejoins Real Madrid. Thus, Barcelona are far from finished and I expect them to either win the La Liga title or put up a very serious title challenge. In the long term

Of course, the key question is how well expected goals applies to very good teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid which include lots and lots of really good finishers. The answer is that no one really knows; these teams tend to over perform expected goals somewhat when playing against worse teams. However, they also tend to have the best keepers, so this tendency should be reduced somewhat when playing against each other.

As a side note, we have three players who greatly overperfom expected goals on our team. One of them is Robben. Another is James. The third one isn't Lewandowski and was a big surprise when I found out that he did.

Finally, to add something else to this long and rambling post, I was outraged by the degree of favoritism the referee showed to Real Madrid in the second leg.
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