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[2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the German Cup matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat May 17, 2014 7:00 pm

Borussia Dortmund will win
5
19%
It will end in a draw
1
4%
Bayern Munich will win
21
78%
 
Total votes : 27

Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby envagyokazapad » Sun May 18, 2014 9:52 pm

Martinez's foot is where Hummels's hand is on that picture and it clearly doesn't look offside to me. The ball was way past the goal line imo, we don't really need to be in line to see that... :P not that it matters though...

I was more pissed off about the free kick that it followed. Basically Hojbjerg falls and it's a free kick and yellow card, wtf?
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun May 18, 2014 9:57 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Even a colleague of mine (juve fan) texed me during the match... a Juve fan out of all supporters... The most corrupted team ever.
On the local news (MLT) also pointed out the disallowed goal - [-X believe me they never mention when something controversial happens in favor of Milan, Man U, Inter or Juve.

Our conversation went something like this (but in Maltese):

Me: how many leagues did you win? 15?
Him: 32, but if anything it would be 30.
Me: yes but it's only two because they only caught you in those. :mrgreen:
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby Mia san Bayern » Sun May 18, 2014 10:10 pm

Bayernbazi wrote:Just one more thing, the ball should completely cross the line, 3/4 in does not count.

This

Just one more thing I like about Bild.

Bild wrote:Klares Tor: Der Ball ist eindeutig hinter der Linie


What's even worse is that there are a lot of people who use is as an analogy that is was obviously a goal but if you look at the pic you see that it would have to depend on which side the ball went. If it goes more towards the right side of Dante's foot on the right the more likely it is that the ball didn't completely went over the line as it would mean that it was above the line. This is what could also be described as an optical illusion which is why we need a vertical imagine to really determine where the ball actually fell (GOAL-LINE TECHNOLOGY).
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby envagyokazapad » Sun May 18, 2014 10:14 pm

Why are you even arguing this I'm not sure. His right foot is on the goal line and his left foot is about 2 balls away from the right...that is over the line at least a full ball :P
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby München Minded » Sun May 18, 2014 10:16 pm

Let's just give it to dortmund, and we still won with two goals. On a side note, in another universe dortmund probably scored that.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby Borusse » Sun May 18, 2014 10:25 pm

Haha, there are people who are arguing that the ball didn't cross the line? :lol:

Brilliant.

Image

München Minded wrote:Let's just give it to dortmund, and we still won with two goals. On a side note, in another universe dortmund probably scored that.


Nope, sorry my friend. If you give us that goal the game is over after 90 minutes and your two goals never happen. You still could have equalised but the fact is simple - we should have been winning after 60-70 minutes, I dont remember when that happened.

I really thought more of this forum. You are denying FACTS, that is just sad. Tflags and MUTU were trying to troll me, I can see that clearly but the rest of you claiming this was not a regular goal are pathetic.

There, my last comment in this thread.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun May 18, 2014 10:32 pm

Borusse wrote:Nope, sorry my friend. If you give us that goal the game is over after 90 minutes and your two goals never happen. You still could have equalised but the fact is simple - we should have been winning after 60-70 minutes, I dont remember when that happened.

65th minute I think.

I agree with you and envagyokazapad, I do not see how anyone can say the ball didn't cross the line. The optical illusion argument is valid in some cases but definitely not in this one. Dante's other foot, which is on the line, makes it obvious the ball had crossed the line.

However, I still believe the goal was offside. No matter how many times I watch a replay I still see it as offside.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby München Minded » Sun May 18, 2014 10:36 pm

@borusse - You ASSUME we wouldn't have scored the other two. You can say what you want about scoring the first goal, but Bayern has a tendency of coming back even stronger after being a goal down. Based on Bayern's history, we still would have won this. We out played and out scored your team, simple as that. Don't act like klopp and whine about what-ifs when quite simply, the universe has played out the way it has. Time for you to move on to next season, because as we all know, there is no overturning anything that's finished. Bayern has had too many of those heart breaks to count, Mia San Mia.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby AdepT » Sun May 18, 2014 10:44 pm

The game's over. No one will get any thing from fretting over a wrongly disallowed goal.
Things like these can happen in football. And DFB has not opted for goal-line technology, if I remember correctly, so this might continue.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby Mia san Bayern » Sun May 18, 2014 10:50 pm

I'm going have to admit that the ball simply did fully cross the line. Not because Dante's foot was in the goal but because the chance the ball was on the right side , where the ball would need to be, to be one the line, is way too small. Apart from that I still think that it was offside and that the "what if" scenario is basically pointless. The ref made the decisions and that's final. I won't comment on this anymore.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby SouthernStar » Mon May 19, 2014 3:06 am

AdepT wrote:The game's over. No one will get any thing from fretting over a wrongly disallowed goal.
Things like these can happen in football. And DFB has not opted for goal-line technology, if I remember correctly, so this might continue.


Kiessling's phantom goal should already serve as a precedent that something like this might happen again in the future. If I recall correctly, both Bayern and BVB were in favor for goal-line technology.

As for argument that the ball crossed the line: the ball *did* cross the line, and in a sense the lineman was the one who didn't feel that it was.

As for the argument whether it was offside: if you look at the Pokal finale articles, it seems that the writer or website bases are split over it - some say offside (including Uli Heese who is known for being a BVB supporter), some say not. The fact that it still remains ambiguous even after being able to view it in slow-motion means that it would have been a tougher call for the referee to decide it on the spot. Uli Heese thinks that it was offside and had the goal been given (because of goal-line technology, it would hardly be fair for us I guess).

As for Javi's right foot determining that it was offside... A fraction of a second is enough for the still image to appear like that. Hummel's body position (which is offside) is an easier determinant for the human eye. You can argue that "but the rules means foot, not body bla bla", who is to say that the exact moment the ball was header over by Reus(?), Javi's feet was still not offside as it just need a fraction of second to be captured in that position in a still image. Which is basically why those that said that Hummels was offside/onside described it as being "marginally". And as mentioned, if the refs had quickly watched the replay during the game, they would most likely used Hummels' body position to determine whether he is offside or not (In which case, his body clearly is). Of course, the argument is going to go back to being that the refs called it out for a goal line clearance above all.

In all, this match will serve as a strong example why technology should be in place in the future. Goal line technology is easy to implement, but we are still a long way from coming up with a "robotic" precise way to determine the whole offside/onside debacle. Hopefully in 5 years or so. Since the tech was not present, the ref's final choice determine the outcome, in which in this case went against BVB (may I also remind that Kiessling's goal was let to stand despite the Hoffy players showing the officials that the net was torn during the match).

So basically, I'm not saying that Hummels is 100% offside (I believe he is but it's too hard to tell). BUT if we goes by Uli Heese's scenario whereby goal-line and instant replay were to be used, the final decision would still came down to the refs. And I'm quite certain (based on the outcome of Kiessling's goal and because they have to commence play asap) that the refs would used Hummels' body position to determine that he was offside and the goal would've been disallowed anyway. The Sky experts and other journalists have all the hour or day to analyze the video and used all their mumbo-jumbo tech and argue on the offside/onside call but the refs simply don't. Besides I would take what the media show/say with a pinch of salt, they need to do what they have to do - which is to increase viewership... and the fact that even them were split over this decision means that it was the "little things" that are really hard to tell anyway... You have to get down and dissect fractions of a second to the tiny minuscule details, the match simply can't afford that luxury... So the end decision still comes down to the officials anyway.

And then again, if we want to complain about the officiating decision, there are also the matter of the handball not given to us and that Kroos or Boa could've been sent off etc... I think a lot of the decisions went against or helped both teams in equal measure, but none was probably in such magnitude as this (and we could argue that the handball is next, where a penalty could eventually cancelled out Hummels' "goal" and the game would go into extra time anyway). Would've, could've, should've...

It's unfortunate and definitely a tough pill to swallow for the BVB fans. Imagine had Arsenal scored one more goal last season and we bowed out of the CL because of Poldi's goal from a non-existent corner - no CL, no treble for us... That was the possibility that we would have been facing... but this is done and dusted, BVB can complain all they want, but the fact is not going to change that they lost... I think the loss means much more because many believed they will come out the winner (even me), but I was pleasantly surprised how well we played and how much grit we showed in the game despite our makeshift team (it felt like both teams were reversed to be honest). In all, I'm seriously hoping that more teams should reconsider about implementing the technology again in the future.

And for super bias comments here - well eff to the "neutrals" who decided to be BVB fan again for the day. And also since it was Hummels who is the "victim" here, I thought it was quite the icing for us at least.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Mon May 19, 2014 6:30 am

Borusse wrote:Haha, there are people who are arguing that the ball didn't cross the line? :lol:

Brilliant.

Image

München Minded wrote:Let's just give it to dortmund, and we still won with two goals. On a side note, in another universe dortmund probably scored that.


Nope, sorry my friend. If you give us that goal the game is over after 90 minutes and your two goals never happen. You still could have equalised but the fact is simple - we should have been winning after 60-70 minutes, I dont remember when that happened.

I really thought more of this forum. You are denying FACTS, that is just sad. Tflags and MUTU were trying to troll me, I can see that clearly but the rest of you claiming this was not a regular goal are pathetic.

There, my last comment in this thread.

Indeed, I was trolling you. In my opinion, it was a deserved goal for Dortmund. Martinez clearly lets Hummels onside, and Dante clears the ball from over the line. I don't understand how some people here are biased so much not to notice this. But hey, wouldn't it have been worse if it was against Schalke, who rejected the goalline technology? Bayern actually voted in its favour. I'd seriously rather that it was awarded to Dortmund, and be fair, and take our chances to try and score the equalizer. Bayern scoring would not have been a foregone conclusion at that point.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby MoFattal » Mon May 19, 2014 8:55 am

It was a legit goal. The offside was questionable. The foul given was exclusively wrong. Logical sequence of events makes the outcome of it fair.

In any case, there's no point talking about it. It's not like we will give the cup back or that it's the first time this happens. Talking about it will just open up more ifs and buts.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby Bayernbazi » Mon May 19, 2014 9:24 am

My comment was in reply to members mentioning that this was being brought up by parties with absolutely no interest in BVB, just for the sake of rubbing it in. Ok I take my comment about the probability that the ball was not behind the line, back, but it will still remain a 'What if' scenario and it won't change anything.


This is what I had in mind when I mentioned that this sometimes works in favour and at times against.

This worked against England in WC 2010 and they still moan about it especially when goal line technolgy is mentioned.
Image
But they don't mention this which happened in Euro 2012
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Last edited by Bayernbazi on Mon May 19, 2014 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2014-05-17] Borussia Dortmund vs Bayern Munich

Postby MoFattal » Mon May 19, 2014 9:44 am

Yeah, you're right. We are always portrayed as the bad guys, and if we were the ones with the chance rather than Dortmund you won't see anyone talking about it. Then it will just be a 100% offside and end of discussion.
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