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[2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:56 pm

Steaua Bucharest will win
1
6%
The match will end in a draw
5
28%
Bayern Munich will win
12
67%
 
Total votes : 18

Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MrLinky » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:33 pm

mackoy wrote:
MUTU wrote:One hand on the ball is enough inside the small box.


Really? Didn't know that. So outside the small box, the keeper has to hold the ball with his two hands so the player can't take it away from him ?



Yea , probably .
The german commentator also said the referee was right to disallow that goal since Rensing had one hand on the ball which is enough appearently .
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:19 pm

I found this note from a FIFA sanctioned course for referees:

“The goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball by touching it with any part of his hand or arms. Possession of the ball includes the goalkeeper deliberately parrying the ball, but does not include the circumstances where, in the opinion of the referee, the ball rebounds accidentally from the goalkeeper, for example after he has made a save. The goalkeeper is considered to be guilty of time-wasting if he holds the ball in his hands or arms for more than 5-6 seconds.”

In one of the replays from a good angle, Rensing seems to be touching the ball with his hand at all times so that will be considered possession and an opponent is committing a foul if he kicks it or heads it. So, the referee was right.

During live play I thought the ball had rebounded and was separated from Rensing when it was kicked, in the first replayed I was confused but I thought that also when there is a 50-50 play in the area it always go the keeper/ defender’s way; in the second and third replay from different angles I have no doubt Rensing was touching the ball when it was kicked.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MaCk0y » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:44 pm

So if I understood correctly, the keeper has the possession of the ball with one hand (or just touching it with is hand or arm) in the whole penalty box. So lets say the keeper drops the ball in front of him and keeps one finger on top it. A player cannot kick the ball? If so then there is no need to get hold of the ball completely while wasting time but just put one finger on it and the player can do nothing about it but become even angrier. :lol:
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:49 am

mackoy wrote:so then there is no need to get hold of the ball completely while wasting time but just put one finger on it and the player can do nothing about it but become even angrier. :lol:


LOL! How about the keeper just getting down on the ground, lying down completely, arms stretched and just touching the ball with the tips of his finger with one hand and the other hand tucked under his head to give that 'relaxed' feeling?
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MaCk0y » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:44 pm

MUTU wrote:
mackoy wrote:so then there is no need to get hold of the ball completely while wasting time but just put one finger on it and the player can do nothing about it but become even angrier. :lol:


LOL! How about the keeper just getting down on the ground, lying down completely, arms stretched and just touching the ball with the tips of his finger with one hand and the other hand tucked under his head to give that 'relaxed' feeling?


LOOOL :!: I would like to see that!
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:58 pm

mackoy wrote:
MUTU wrote:
mackoy wrote:so then there is no need to get hold of the ball completely while wasting time but just put one finger on it and the player can do nothing about it but become even angrier. :lol:


LOL! How about the keeper just getting down on the ground, lying down completely, arms stretched and just touching the ball with the tips of his finger with one hand and the other hand tucked under his head to give that 'relaxed' feeling?


LOOOL :!: I would like to see that!


I understand your sense of humor but believe it or not that can be perfectly done as long as it lasts only 5-6 seconds, the keeper can gain control of the ball, stretch on the ground with one finger on the ball and the opponent will commit a faul if he kicks it.

As for questioning that one finger only should not be considered possession, then where do you draw the line? Is it 2 fingers, 3 fingers, all five. I can easily picture the arguments and protests if you set a standard by the number of fingers, how can a referee from 20 yards determine if there were 2 or 3 fingers over the ball? This "number of fingers rule" should be left for what players do in private in their beds :wink:

Below I am copying a longer explanation of what goalkeeper's possession is, the only thing that might have changed since the text that I posted before is "parrying" which was redefined in 1997.
Last edited by Jorge on Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:04 pm

Referee Programs

Playing the Ball in the Goalkeeper's Possession

By Jim Allen, National Instructor Staff

This article is designed to help make referees and players aware of what constitutes goalkeeper possession and what opponents may and may not do when the goalkeeper has possession.

What Does "Possession” Mean?
While the ball is in the possession of the goalkeeper, it cannot be played by an opponent. Any attempt to do so may be punished by a direct free kick. "In the possession of the goalkeeper" is defined as the goalkeeper having the ball trapped between one hand and a surface (which may include the other hand, the ground, a goalpost, or the keeper's own body). International Board Decision Two of Law 12 emphasizes that the hand includes any part of the hand or arm. However, as stated in the Advice to Referees on the Laws of the Game (Advice 12.16 and 12.17), the goalkeeper is also considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air. Possession is given up if, while throwing the ball into the air, it is allowed to strike the ground.

Once the goalkeeper has gained possession (also known as "control") of the ball, an opponent may not interfere with or block the goalkeeper's distribution of the ball. For example, players have a right to maintain a position achieved during the normal course of play, but they may not try to block the goalkeeper's movement while he or she is holding the ball and trying to distribute it. Nor may opposing players do anything to hinder, interfere with, or block a goalkeeper who is throwing or punting the ball back into play. The goalkeeper has already gained possession and is granted up to six seconds to release the ball back into play by other players. A goalkeeper in the act of distributing the ball may not be challenged under these circumstances. (This includes trying to head a ball out of the goalkeeper's open hand or playing a ball being bounced or tossed into the air by the goalkeeper.) An opponent does not violate the Law, however, if that player takes advantage of a ball clearly released by the goalkeeper directly to him or her, in his or her direction, or deflecting off him or her nonviolently.

When is Possession Lost?
The critical question is when the goalkeeper has released the ball into play and thus has allowed the ball to be played by an opponent. Based on traditional interpretations of this issue and the International Board's Questions and Answers, the referee should consider the ball as having been released into play after leaving the goalkeeper's hands only if the goalkeeper has completed a throw or kick (punt) and the goalkeeper is not able directly to possess the ball again in his or her hands. Thus, the ball is not playable by an opponent during the entire time it is being held by the goalkeeper (including when the ball is being bounced on the ground) or during the entire process of being released into play (including the action of throwing or kicking/punting the ball). In short, opponents may play the ball only if the goalkeeper has clearly distributed the ball by kicking or throwing it.

"Parrying" Versus "Saving"
The concept of "parrying" is still in the Law; however, parrying is no longer seen at the higher levels of play, because it is no longer an effective tool for the goalkeeper, who has only six seconds to distribute the ball after achieving possession. "Parrying" should not be confused with making a "save." "Parrying" occurs when the goalkeeper controls the ball with the hands by pushing it to an area where it can be played later. By parrying the ball, the goalkeeper has done two things simultaneously: (1) established control and (2) given up possession. The ball is now free for all to play and the goalkeeper may not play it again with the hands. Referees must watch carefully to see that the goalkeeper does not use a parry (disguised as a “save”) in an attempt to hide the fact that he or she has established possession.

When the Goalkeeper Releases the Ball
Since the overhaul of the Laws in 1997, other players may not attempt to play the ball while the goalkeeper has possession of the ball or is attempting to release the ball so that others may play it. An opposing player attempting to do so with the foot should be whistled for either kicking or attempting to kick, and the referee must award a direct free kick. The goalkeeper gives up possession if, while throwing the ball into the air, he allows it to strike the ground. The goalkeeper also gives up possession by clearly releasing it for general play. It is playable in such a case as soon as it hits the ground. (NOTE: The released ball must hit the ground to be playable. If the goalkeeper is punting the ball, the opponent may not interfere or attempt to play the ball.) Any attempt to kick the ball while it is in the possession of the 'keeper may be punished by a direct free kick (and may be subject to caution or send-off, depending on the circumstances).

If the goalkeeper has control—but not full possession—by means other than the hands (e.g., dribbling with the feet or holding the ball against the ground with his body or feet), an opponent may challenge the goalkeeper in any permissible way. As there are very few permissible ways to play a ball trapped by the goalkeeper's body or legs, the goalkeeper must either release the ball immediately or rise and play the ball immediately. Failure to do so could result in the awarding of an indirect free kick against the goalkeeper for playing dangerously, and, if this illegal control persists, possibly a caution and yellow card for unsporting behavior.

Why Are These Provisions Important?
These provisions are important because the IFAB wants the ball to be playable as much and for as long as possible. Anything that reduces legal challenges for the ball must be strictly limited. That is why there are rules against the goalkeeper establishing second possession (also known as second touch) or handling a ball that has been deliberately kicked to him or her by a teammate, handling on a throw-in from a teammate, and even the basic limitation of six seconds. They are all designed to keep to a minimum the time an opponent may not challenge for the ball.

What the Referee Looks For
The referee's perception of goalkeeper possession should be tempered by the players’ skill level. At very young ages, possession of the ball should be defined broadly to include having a hand on the ball, other than purely incidental contact. Once the goalkeeper is in possession of the ball, opponents must stop challenging or attempting to play the ball. Any attempt to kick, head, knee, or otherwise play the ball in the goalkeeper's possession must be considered as an action directed at the goalkeeper and therefore should be considered as a direct free kick offense. If contact is made, the referee might consider that the kicking player committed serious foul play and might then send off the player and show the red card.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:27 pm

Jorge wrote:I understand your sense of humor but believe it or not that can be perfectly done as long as it lasts only 5-6 seconds, the keeper can gain control of the ball, stretch on the ground with one finger on the ball and the opponent will commit a faul if he kicks it.

As for questioning that one finger only should not be considered possession, then where do you draw the line? Is it 2 fingers, 3 fingers, all five. I can easily picture the arguments and protests if you set a standard by the number of fingers, how can a referee from 20 yards determine if there were 2 or 3 fingers over the ball? This "number of fingers rule" should be left for what players do in private in their beds :wink:

Below I am copying a longer explanation of what goalkeeper's possession is, the only thing that might have changed since the text that I posted before is "parrying" which was redefined in 1997.


But there is also a rule in football that a player cannot try to ridicule his opponent(s) and/or provoke them, and this may be seen as an act of provocation, especially if done with a big smile on the face :)
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MaCk0y » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:57 pm

...the goalkeeper is also considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air.


I saw one of the 'funny soccer' videos on youtube and one of them shows a keeper with the ball in his hands and an opponent in front of him. The keeper threw the ball into the air and when he was going to shoot it, the opponent kicks the ball while it is in mid air, thus 'robs' the ball from keeper and then scores. According to the article, it is illegal but I'm not sure if the goal was allowed or disallowed. I'll try to find the video.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:56 pm

mackoy wrote:
...the goalkeeper is also considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air.


I saw one of the 'funny soccer' videos on youtube and one of them shows a keeper with the ball in his hands and an opponent in front of him. The keeper threw the ball into the air and when he was going to shoot it, the opponent kicks the ball while it is in mid air, thus 'robs' the ball from keeper and then scores. According to the article, it is illegal but I'm not sure if the goal was allowed or disallowed. I'll try to find the video.


Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MaCk0y » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:42 pm

MUTU wrote:
mackoy wrote:
...the goalkeeper is also considered to be in possession of the ball while bouncing it on the ground or while throwing it into the air.


I saw one of the 'funny soccer' videos on youtube and one of them shows a keeper with the ball in his hands and an opponent in front of him. The keeper threw the ball into the air and when he was going to shoot it, the opponent kicks the ball while it is in mid air, thus 'robs' the ball from keeper and then scores. According to the article, it is illegal but I'm not sure if the goal was allowed or disallowed. I'll try to find the video.


Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.


Really? But did the referee whistle for a foul?
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby likma » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:30 pm

MUTU wrote:Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.
I believe it was against Getafe, 1st match.
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MrLinky » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:43 pm

likma wrote:
MUTU wrote:Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.
I believe it was against Getafe, 1st match.



Yea it was in the first leg against Getafe and the referee did whistle a foul . :wink:
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:57 pm

likma wrote:
MUTU wrote:Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.
I believe it was against Getafe, 1st match.


I knew it was in the UEFA Cup, couldn't remember against who, but you're right!

Bayern came roaring out of the blocks and Toni appeared to have put them ahead in the fifth minute when he wrested possession from Getafe keeper Oscar Ustari and slotted home, but the Italian was penalised for a foul.


I've found the highlight as well: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/se ... i-co_sport

:)
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Re: [2008-09-17] Steaua Bucharest vs Bayern Munich

Postby MaCk0y » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:34 pm

MUTU wrote:
likma wrote:
MUTU wrote:Luca Toni did that for Bayern last season, I forgot against who.
I believe it was against Getafe, 1st match.


I knew it was in the UEFA Cup, couldn't remember against who, but you're right!

Bayern came roaring out of the blocks and Toni appeared to have put them ahead in the fifth minute when he wrested possession from Getafe keeper Oscar Ustari and slotted home, but the Italian was penalised for a foul.


I've found the highlight as well: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/se ... i-co_sport

:)


Yes, now I remember it. 10x Mutu for the video!
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