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[2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:45 pm

FC BATE Borisov will win
1
3%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
29
97%
 
Total votes : 30

Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Commodore » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:16 am

Well, as Walter likes to put it (and I'm willing to concede, at least a bit now), we're not clinical enough in the box. Having Gómez back and 100% fit may or may not be able to remedy that. I think it will, and there are a few reasons why I think so:

1. Flexibility
One has and "off day"? Sub in the other. That's clearly more an option than with only Pizarro on the bench at the moment.

2. Competition
Pizarro is a good striker and all, but he's past his prime and simply doesn't offer the kind of competition to Mandzukic that Gómez could. I think the presence of the other Mario could squeeze out the best out of both of them.

3. Unpredictability
Both Marios are great strikers, yet they are so different to each other. Teams will have to prepare against both of them and will also have to anticipate us changing them mid-game (see point 1.).
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:09 am

Even though Gomez misses a lot of chances he is much better in the box imo to Mandzukic and bis stats do not lie. Overall i believe Gomez is a a lil bit more well rounded since Mandzukic best attribute is his head while Gomez uses both feet and head comfortable.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby MoFattal » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:23 am

Nah, against "park the bus" teams, the presence of either Mario alone inside the box is very limited. Either we need to put them both together (clearly my line of thinking), or play with a false #9 as per Barca's style. Even if we stick with the same formation, there is one thing we must improve or else we are going to suffer later on in the tournament: SET PIECE DELIVERIES/CROSSINGS. Having an average of 10+ corners per game, and possibly 20+ open-play crosses per game without yielding a goal (or a goal attempt to say the least) is miserable.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:48 am

Agreed!! I was expecting with the addition of Dante and Martinez Bayern would improve in that department but it has looked as bad as usual I don't know why but its almost like the heavens dont want Bayern to score :P Maybe your right and by adding both Marios it wu be better. When Gomez is back Jupp cud sub in both Marios in his 4-3-3 but keep Gomez at the 9 and bump Mandzukic out wide since I believe be is versatile enough to play their but he would probably play close to Gomez as a SS giving Bayern the best of both worlds
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:42 pm

The 2 striker is switch is something which I don't understand why Heynckes doesn't like trying. I was really annoyed when Pizza replaced Mandzukic on Tuesday.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby AvatarX » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:51 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Pizza replied Mandzukic


Element?
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:55 pm

AvatarX wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:Pizza replied Mandzukic


Element?

Yes :oops:
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby BayernSupporter » Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:58 pm

MUTU wrote:Agreed with pretty much everything above except the Robben bit. Robben needed a shakeup reality check for his huge ego that was part of the reason for the loss.

But anyway, I agree that just showing negativity is very irritating.

Still the boo'ing is just wrong in every way. Robben is giving more passes now then he used too and mostly the other players miss but just like Schweinsteiger goal( Robben Assist ) the last match of the Champions League before BATE they were really good.

Robben should restore fully in order to make Bayern champions because Bayern really needs him even if you dont like it.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Commodore » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:25 pm

You act like in a one-striker-system there's only one person allowed in the box, our "lone" striker. We've had multiple players in the box multiple times, and bar maybe Shaqiri all of them are capable of converting crosses.

Having a nominal second striker on the sheet isn't a panacea.

Let's face it guys, there is no panacea against "park the bus" teams. I mean, it's called "park the bus" for a reason, no? The only thing that is pretty much foolproof against them is scoring early, and again I must say that if Kroos doesn't hit the post, no one in here will call for a second striker (similar to my Drogba argument).

We can't just always look at the results alone and praise or dismiss the whole system/approach we're taking based on them. Praise it if we win, dismiss it if we lose.

If we field two strikers and fail to create enough because we're outnumbered in the midfield, what do you suggest then? 3-5-2? If then our wings are too exhausted and no squad depth in the world and no rotation whatsoever can remedy that, what then? *

What I'm trying to say is, there's no "perfect" formation, no "perfect" tactic. It's all tradeoffs. In today's football I believe the most viable formation is the 4-2-3-1 and its derivatives (4-3-3 and 4-1-4-1). They generate majorities in midfield against two-striker-systems (Which is the reason the 4-2-3-1 is so immensely popular right now, especially against English teams), and are versatile enough to allow for proactive/reactive, offensive/defensive, possession based/direct, centrally focused/wings focused play.

*None of this has to happen inevitably in these formations. These are just examples.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:35 pm

Commodore wrote:You act like in a one-striker-system there's only one person allowed in the box, our "lone" striker. We've had multiple players in the box multiple times, and bar maybe Shaqiri all of them are capable of converting crosses.

Having a nominal second striker on the sheet isn't a panacea.

Let's face it guys, there is no panacea against "park the bus" teams. I mean, it's called "park the bus" for a reason, no? The only thing that is pretty much foolproof against them is scoring early, and again I must say that if Kroos doesn't hit the post, no one in here will call for a second striker (similar to my Drogba argument).

We can't just always look at the results alone and praise or dismiss the whole system/approach we're taking based on them. Praise it if we win, dismiss it if we lose.

If we field two strikers and fail to create enough because we're outnumbered in the midfield, what do you suggest then? 3-5-2? If then our wings are too exhausted and no squad depth in the world and no rotation whatsoever can remedy that, what then? *

What I'm trying to say is, there's no "perfect" formation, no "perfect" tactic. It's all tradeoffs. In today's football I believe the most viable formation is the 4-2-3-1 and its derivatives (4-3-3 and 4-1-4-1). They generate majorities in midfield against two-striker-systems (Which is the reason the 4-2-3-1 is so immensely popular right now, especially against English teams), and are versatile enough to allow for proactive/reactive, offensive/defensive, possession based/direct, centrally focused/wings focused play.

*None of this has to happen inevitably in these formations. These are just examples.

I think you might have misunderstood me. I did not mean we should start with two strikers, but switch to it during the game, when we needed to score soon and it was looking unlikely that we will.

Of course it doesn't mean we would have scored, but if what we are doing fails almost all the time when we are losing against a park the bus team, why not try it out?
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby MoFattal » Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:31 pm

Commodore wrote:The only thing that is pretty much foolproof against them is scoring early, and again I must say that if Kroos doesn't hit the post, no one in here will call for a second striker (similar to my Drogba argument).


The first part is definitely true. I think all of us agree that if Kroos scored that goal, then we would've shipped in at least a couple more. But the discussion is not solely focused on this game, it is meant as a general comment regarding other teams that "park the bus" and that are actually good at it. Let's face it, we will face such defensive teams 90% of the times because of our pedigree, however the experienced "bus parkers" are the ones who cause it trouble as evident by the past 2 seasons. My reasoning is that we are even relying more on crosses than before even though it really didn't work out before. So, the presence of another guy capable of heading the ball into the goal makes some sense, especially since Ribery, Kroos, Robben aren't a good headers to say the least (I kept out Muller since I know I'll get some mentioning of the CL final goal). All I'm saying is:

FCBayernMunchen wrote: if what we are doing fails almost all the time when we are losing against a park the bus team, why not try it out?
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Commodore » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:38 pm

MoFattal wrote:My reasoning is that we are even relying more on crosses than before even though it really didn't work out before.


Fürth:
Spoiler: show
Park the bus.
We score from a corner, then put two more past them.

Stuttgart:
Spoiler: show
Don't park the bus.
Still, we equalize from a situation that resulted from a cross. Also, the 6:1 is a direct conversion of a cross.

Mainz:
Spoiler: show
Field a 4-3-2-1 super defensive formation.
We score in the first minute from a cross, then in the 13th from another cross before Tuchel adjusts into a 4-4-2 diamond, and only then we have some problems.
We put a third one past them from a cross.

Wolfsburg:
Spoiler: show
Granted, they play shitty, but we put 1, 2, 3 past them.
All from crosses.

Conclusion:
Spoiler: show
I count 9 out of our 19 goals (47%) that are direct results of crosses - 4 out of those 9 (44%) against teams that park the bus.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby MoFattal » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:07 pm

Nice! You just took this sentence in its literal meaning and flushed every sense in the entire remaining comment down the toilet.

Come on man, I specifically mentioned teams that are "actually good" at parking the bus. Plus, you do know that by crosses I was referring to crosses where the other team's defenders are already positioned in their own box, and not in counter-attacking situations (or when they is no defensive concept whatsoever as in the case of Stuttgart) where we outnumber (or even out) them. You forgot to add Shaqiri's so-called cross to Mandzukic in the 2nd goal of the Werder game, because in the literal sense, it was a cross. But, that's not what I was referring too, and I'm pretty sure you know that ;)

The only one that applies is the Furth goal, and I am very much agree with that. In fact, I was so glad that it came from a corner. And that's what many of us would like to see again, but against tougher opponents, because Furth is not the standards on which to base a case.

Spoiler: show
From now on, when I mention a cross please consider it as a cross-when-the-opponents-are-well-positioned-inside-their-box :P
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Commodore » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:52 pm

Well, it wasn't the first time that I heard someone say that we're bad at converting crosses, so I disproved that. Not all of those goals resulted out of counter attacks, and I think it's only natural that you score less if the opponents' defense is organized. So I simply think your expectations are a bit too high with regards to crosses into a box full of 9 defenders.
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Re: [2012-10-02] FC BATE Borisov vs Bayern Munich

Postby Commodore » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:55 pm

Unrelated to that, do you guys remember when I ridiculed the "Kicker Noten" (the ratings Kicker gives to every player after every match)? I said they mean nothing and my example was David Alaba getting merely a 2.5 in both games vs Real.

Let's put this 2.5 rating into perspective, shall we?.

Guess who got a 2.5 vs Borisov? Franck Ribéry.

Kicker is telling us that Ribéry played just as well vs Borisov as Alaba did vs Real.

LOL Kicker Noten.
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