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[2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm

Celtic F.C. will win
2
40%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
3
60%
 
Total votes : 5

Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:50 pm

I am sorry to disagree but I am not giving Vidal, Rafinha or James a free pass either. All I am saying is that I do not count on any of them for anything beyond this season and there is a general consensus that next summer's transfer window will be one of the most important ones in Bayern's recent history. It will make sense to sell Vidal, not extend Rafinha and let James make the move to Orlando to replace Kaka or NYC to replace Villa; but Tolisso was just bought to anchor our midfield for the years to come.
I am under the impression that you are giving Tolisso a free pass though: all the reasons that you mention could affect his performance to a certain degree but the more that we watch him the less he shows that he is Bayern material. Right now he looks a lot like the next Andreas Ottl and it has nothing to do with Nationality or passport, it has to do with that at 23 years of age and a price tag over 40M he should at least be average and he isn't.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:07 pm

Just think for a minute that although we got Sebastian Rudy for free he had a market price of 5M at his best when he was with Hoff, now compare him to Tolisso. That's your answer.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Jorge wrote:I am sorry to disagree but I am not giving Vidal, Rafinha or James a free pass either. All I am saying is that I do not count on any of them for anything beyond this season and there is a general consensus that next summer's transfer window will be one of the most important ones in Bayern's recent history. It will make sense to sell Vidal, not extend Rafinha and let James make the move to Orlando to replace Kaka or NYC to replace Villa; but Tolisso was just bought to anchor our midfield for the years to come.
I am under the impression that you are giving Tolisso a free pass though: all the reasons that you mention could affect his performance to a certain degree but the more that we watch him the less he shows that he is Bayern material. Right now he looks a lot like the next Andreas Ottl and it has nothing to do with Nationality or passport, it has to do with that at 23 years of age and a price tag over 40M he should at least be average and he isn't.


I'm not giving a free pass to no one;if you think I favor Coco,because he's my favourite i think you should not worry about that either.Also,that James to Orlando at his age is just ridiculous nonsense for me.So I will accept that whatever I say more about James or Tolisso,it's not going to be a valid option for you,so i'm going to post the overall player ratings from the games so far : (ive got the stats from the league,i'm posting from my phone - i don't have time at the moment to look at CL stats)
1.Vidal-7.69
2.Lewandowski-7.60
3.Thiago-7.50
4.Kimmich-7.46
5.James-7.45
6.Martinez-7.38
7.Coman-7.24
8.Tolisso-7.22
8.Alaba-7.22
9.Robben-7.11
10.Rudy-7.01
11.Boateng-6.99
12.Müller-6.95
13.Süle-6.83

And the last one is Rafinha;i'm leaving Neuer,Ulreich and Ribery out (they are all on the last 4);
I don't see how Coco is underperforming at the moment.Ranked 8 from all of the players,if that's not at least average by your standards,it is by mine.I never said that he's playing at his best,or he's the best player at the moment,but comeone, he's not that bad as you're saying.

I will answer you tomorrow,if you reply.

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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Darby3110 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:45 pm

Bayern Fans

I hope you don’t mind but I wanted to register with your forum to let you know what the majority of Celtic supporters thought about the game yesterday.

First and foremost, you’re the much better team, and we realise you had a lot of players out injured. You deserved the win but it was a fantastic game to watch.

I go to the majority of Celtic games, home and away, and I think the thing that struck me most about the game on Tuesday was your fans - I was socialising (having a beer or four) with your fans before the game, and each and every single Bayern fan was fantastic, really friendly and warm towards all of the Celtic fans. During the game, you helped create a brilliant atmosphere, and after the game all of your fans were humble and, if truth be told, I enjoyed a good many more beers with some of your supporters.

You’re all a credit to your club, a great club, with fantastic players and leadership, and from a Celtic point of view, we really hope you go all the way in this competition.

Get Lewa, Muller, Neuer and Hummels back and you’ll do just fine.

Finally, thank you for making Tuesday such a memorable occasion both on and off the field. My 7 year old son has proudly hung a Bayern scarf up in his bedroom, kindly donated to me by one of your fans.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:56 pm

Darby3110 wrote:Bayern Fans

I hope you don’t mind but I wanted to register with your forum to let you know what the majority of Celtic supporters thought about the game yesterday.

First and foremost, you’re the much better team, and we realise you had a lot of players out injured. You deserved the win but it was a fantastic game to watch.

I go to the majority of Celtic games, home and away, and I think the thing that struck me most about the game on Tuesday was your fans - I was socialising (having a beer or four) with your fans before the game, and each and every single Bayern fan was fantastic, really friendly and warm towards all of the Celtic fans. During the game, you helped create a brilliant atmosphere, and after the game all of your fans were humble and, if truth be told, I enjoyed a good many more beers with some of your supporters.

You’re all a credit to your club, a great club, with fantastic players and leadership, and from a Celtic point of view, we really hope you go all the way in this competition.

Get Lewa, Muller, Neuer and Hummels back and you’ll do just fine.

Finally, thank you for making Tuesday such a memorable occasion both on and off the field. My 7 year old son has proudly hung a Bayern scarf up in his bedroom, kindly donated to me by one of your fans.
Thanks mate, I am a big admirer of your club ... I also own a gear of Celtic...

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
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U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby IsiahRashad » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:21 pm

Darby3110 wrote:Bayern Fans

I hope you don’t mind but I wanted to register with your forum to let you know what the majority of Celtic supporters thought about the game yesterday.

First and foremost, you’re the much better team, and we realise you had a lot of players out injured. You deserved the win but it was a fantastic game to watch.

I go to the majority of Celtic games, home and away, and I think the thing that struck me most about the game on Tuesday was your fans - I was socialising (having a beer or four) with your fans before the game, and each and every single Bayern fan was fantastic, really friendly and warm towards all of the Celtic fans. During the game, you helped create a brilliant atmosphere, and after the game all of your fans were humble and, if truth be told, I enjoyed a good many more beers with some of your supporters.

You’re all a credit to your club, a great club, with fantastic players and leadership, and from a Celtic point of view, we really hope you go all the way in this competition.

Get Lewa, Muller, Neuer and Hummels back and you’ll do just fine.

Finally, thank you for making Tuesday such a memorable occasion both on and off the field. My 7 year old son has proudly hung a Bayern scarf up in his bedroom, kindly donated to me by one of your fans.


You're welcome,mate.First of all,thank you for your warm words and..
t’s too bad that Celtic are not as big as they once were,but man,those fans are bloody marvellous people.CP is one of the beautifull stadiums in Europe; atmospheric, steep and narrow.you have the first standing section in the United Kingdom, this section is the catalyst for all the atmosphere at Celtic Park, This section will sing from beginning to end, every match. Some of the displays that they produce are incredible.
I have huge respect for you guys,Celtic is far more than a football club. The traditions, the history, the warmth..
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:14 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:I will answer you tomorrow,if you reply.


I am sorry again, the numbers do not tell me much, so you could save some time on that.

I still do not see it, so far Tolisso is not the next Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger or even Alonso limping his out to retirement. He is like the next Andreas Ottl that with some improvements could be the next Tymoshchuk or Altıntop. At 23 he will need to turn himself on a dime to support the central spine of our team, that's what he was brought to do and that's what he is not doing.

Just another comparison: Julian Weigl just slightly younger, a much better player. I hope that I am wrong and Tolisso shows me that he is the next Makelele or at least that I can tell my Chelsea fan friends that they have Kanté but we have Tolisso :oops:

BTW, Leicester paid only 9M for a 24 year old N'Golo Kanté and he delivered. We paid 41.5M for Tolisso and.........let's see by the end of the season. I can give you many other examples but I am under the impression that you will not understand what I am saying which by no means is bashing Tolisso. I am just reporting what I see.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Ed. » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:19 am

Jorge wrote:
I still do not see it, so far Tolisso is not the next Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger or even Alonso limping his out to retirement. He is like the next Andreas Ottl that with some improvements could be the next Tymoshchuk or Altıntop. At 23 he will need to turn himself on a dime to support the central spine of our team, that's what he was brought to do and that's what he is not doing.
.


Spot on.

Our transfer window was rank sh%t.

I completely agree. It seems we are not ok spending big money on proven targets because of competition from the clubs making a mockery of transfer fees but are fine throwing around smaller but still hefty sums on unproven targets.

75 mill for DeBruyne...Oh my god no no...40 mil for Tollissowho? Yup, we'll take him thank you.
Absolutely retarded.


Also, I think it says much about the fans here who were for instance overjoyed with the James signing. Just look at his transfer thread.

The guy was woeful at Madrid and the few impressive performances he did have were against average teams or when the game was done and dusted. When the Madrid reject tag is applied, people then bring up Robben. There was a big big difference in Robben's case. Real wanted to offload a player they thought was doomed to be plagued by injuries. We took the gamble and it paid off. There was never any doubt as to what a fit Robben would bring to Bayern. What does James at his best bring? A few nice touches, good set pieces and that's about it. He's never got used to the pace of the Liga game after moving from Monaco and he won't be doing that in the BL or CL now. He just always seems to be 1 step behind in action and thought.


You look at De bruyne, Sane and the amount of speed city have and one can only wish what could have been.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:11 am

Jorge wrote:
IsiahRashad wrote:I will answer you tomorrow,if you reply.


I am sorry again, the numbers do not tell me much, so you could save some time on that.

I still do not see it, so far Tolisso is not the next Van Bommel, Schweinsteiger or even Alonso limping his out to retirement. He is like the next Andreas Ottl that with some improvements could be the next Tymoshchuk or Altıntop. At 23 he will need to turn himself on a dime to support the central spine of our team, that's what he was brought to do and that's what he is not doing.

Just another comparison: Julian Weigl just slightly younger, a much better player. I hope that I am wrong and Tolisso shows me that he is the next Makelele or at least that I can tell my Chelsea fan friends that they have Kanté but we have Tolisso :oops:

BTW, Leicester paid only 9M for a 24 year old N'Golo Kanté and he delivered. We paid 41.5M for Tolisso and.........let's see by the end of the season. I can give you many other examples but I am under the impression that you will not understand what I am saying which by no means is bashing Tolisso. I am just reporting what I see.


No one expected Kante to be so good,Inter also looked dumb when they sold Coutihno to Liverpool for 10M.But overall the number of such players is small, the difference with the high-paid transfers is that there are no big expectations for them.You take a big risk and hope for the best.

Well,the numbers showed how the players are rated for their games until now and the assessments are from experts, they are not invented by my head. :D I just showed that in comparison to the whole team - he presented himself at an average level.We have all the time in World to sit down and as a Bayern fans-to hope that things are going to work properly.

I think we just have different criteria for good,average and bad performance,but for one we agree - we can not make a full assessment of anyone after few matches.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:04 pm

IsiahRashad wrote: I think we just have different criteria for good,average and bad performance

Yes we do.

Performance rating from a mix of games means nothing if that 8.0 or 9.0 rated player flops at every big game. Isn't that the reason why Pep Guardiola is not our coach today?
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby dandydowser » Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:46 pm

Sometimes get a different opinion of a match when you're at it compared to reality so been waiting on getting the chance to watch the TV coverage I recorded before commenting on Tuesday night.

Few thoughts:

We have a fantastic away support - Tuesday was my first chance to watch FCB in the Bayern end away (I was in the Aberdeen end at Pittodrie in 2008) and we sang, were noisy and partied for 90 minutes. Made some new friends too with the lads I was standing next to and looking forward to catching up with them when I'm in München next month.

Speaking of which, the talk of the atmosphere from the home support is vastly overstated - yes at moments it was fantastic: prior to kick off what a roar and the '67 tribute was as impressive as ever, but for large parts of the game with the exception of the Green Brigade in the corner opposite us (Celtic's version of the Südkurve who at least tried to keep the noise coming for the 90 minutes), Celtic Park was silent apart from our corner of red and white!

Rafinha was as much of a nightmare as I thought he was on Tuesday night. In the past he was a sturdy if unspectacular stand in for Philipp Lahm but this season when I've seen him he's just not been good enough. Much as we need a quality stand in for Lewandowski we also need one for Kimmich at the right back slot unless Rafinha ups his game.

Likewise Tolisso I still can't see how he is a €40+M player but I do hope he proves me wrong and comes good in future.

Final thought, we played the Scottish champions with half a team missing (either back in München or starting on the bench) and still managed to win - to me that shows the gulf between German and Scottish football and delighted as I am as an FCB fan with our win on Tuesday as a Scot it's also mildly depressing. (However on the plus side, with my "local" club scarf on, it still remains that the last Scottish club not to lose to FCB in a European match is Aberdeen - so not all bad! :D )

Hope everyone who came to Glasgow on Tuesday to support FCB from Germany and the rest of the world had fun and a good journey home.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby Manchu » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:06 pm

dandydowser wrote:Rafinha was as much of a nightmare as I thought he was on Tuesday night. In the past he was a sturdy if unspectacular stand in for Philipp Lahm but this season when I've seen him he's just not been good enough. Much as we need a quality stand in for Lewandowski we also need one for Kimmich at the right back slot unless Rafinha ups his game.

Likewise Tolisso I still can't see how he is a €40+M player but I do hope he proves me wrong and comes good in future.


On the issue of Rafinha, he's definitely declined as he has aged(he was one of the best right backs in the world between 2013/14 and 2015/16), but I'm not sure we can expect that much more from a backup player(there may very well be an equally big gap between Lewandowski and our backup striker) and I'm still not aware of anyone else equally good who is willing to sit on our bench. Equally importantly, I'm not sure if there isn't a connection between Tolisso's manifold performance issues and Rafinha's problems.

You see, this season Rafinha has been decent to excellent at the left back position, and has had some good games as a right back. He was good in the last 10 minutes in the first leg against Celtic and as a sub in the DFB-Pokal match against Leipzig, while he's been mediocre to bad against Hamburg and Celtic away, both cases where Tolisso started in the right defensive mid position. It is evident that Tolisso doesn't control space well or position himself well in possession, so I suspect that he leaves the RB unusually exposed while not distributing the ball well to the right winger and right back, thus hurting both our defense and our offense.
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Re: [2017-10-31] Celtic vs Bayern Munich

Postby dandydowser » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:12 pm

Manchu wrote:On the issue of Rafinha, he's definitely declined as he has aged(he was one of the best right backs in the world between 2013/14 and 2015/16), but I'm not sure we can expect that much more from a backup player(there may very well be an equally big gap between Lewandowski and our backup striker) and I'm still not aware of anyone else equally good who is willing to sit on our bench. Equally importantly, I'm not sure if there isn't a connection between Tolisso's manifold performance issues and Rafinha's problems.

You see, this season Rafinha has been decent to excellent at the left back position, and has had some good games as a right back. He was good in the last 10 minutes in the first leg against Celtic and as a sub in the DFB-Pokal match against Leipzig, while he's been mediocre to bad against Hamburg and Celtic away, both cases where Tolisso started in the right defensive mid position. It is evident that Tolisso doesn't control space well or position himself well in possession, so I suspect that he leaves the RB unusually exposed while not distributing the ball well to the right winger and right back, thus hurting both our defense and our offense.


Hmm, interesting point and you could well be right.

Really hope Jupp can sort out whatever issues Tolisso has and get him playing to the level that we expected in the summer, at the moment he looks like a really bad waste of a lot of money (especially when compared to the great value of the Rudy and Süle deals).
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