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[2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:45 pm

Bayern Munich will go through after 90 minutes
36
62%
Bayern Munich will go through after extra time
6
10%
Bayern Munich will go through after penalties
3
5%
Real Madrid will go through after penalties
1
2%
Real Madrid will go through after extra time
0
No votes
Real Madrid will go through on away goals rule after 90 minutes
7
12%
Real Madrid will go through on aggregate after 90 minutes
5
9%
 
Total votes : 58

Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby tflags » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:29 am

I rather think Guardiola took the team farther than it would have been should any other manager would have stepped in. I have said it before, winning is not only about tactics, you have to want it. Hell, look at Atlético for crying out loud.

This game will change the team's mentality in more ways that we can imagine. At least the pressure of keeping the cup is finally up, now they can concentrate on playing.

quaazi wrote:I've never seen our players so nervous and aggressive without any bite on the pitch. They kept picking fights with Real players, it was sad to see.


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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby shindouhikaru888 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:36 am

I've been thinking about it and i want to bring up something even though i don't post much. Remember how we all hope that we'll draw easy teams like Manu and others for the last 16 and quarter? I had a feeling back then that we will find things hard in the end, and wanted us to play stronger teams earlier. Real beat Schalke with an amazing margin then almost lost to an injured Dortmund which we would not have expected and improved, we on the other hand played easy teams and fail to realize our weaknesses. I think things would have turned around if things were not as easy for us at the start.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:42 am

shindouhikaru888 wrote:I've been thinking about it and i want to bring up something even though i don't post much. Remember how we all hope that we'll draw easy teams like Manu and others for the last 16 and quarter? I had a feeling back then that we will find things hard in the end, and wanted us to play stronger teams earlier. Real beat Schalke with an amazing margin then almost lost to an injured Dortmund which we would not have expected and improved, we on the other hand played easy teams and fail to realize our weaknesses. I think things would have turned around if things were not as easy for us at the start.


I don't think that vs Man U and Arsenal we had an easy evening! Until Arsenal had the GK sent off they were in the game as much as we were. And vs Utd it was not long ago so we all remember
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:57 am

AvatarX wrote:Really gutted today.
Very dissappointed with the players but most of all with Pep's tactics.

It was a totally tactical disaster. Pep showed stubborness and deployed the same boring and easily beatable tactics (for a fast counter attacking team like Madrid) we play 1 week ago. After all, he said: " The reason for the defeat is that we didn’t do enough with the ball. We were outstanding in that respect in Manchester and also in Madrid, but not tonight.", so he believes
1. we should have more possession (like the possession was the problem and not our defensive approach)
2. We were outstanding in Madrid (wait, what? we could easily have lost 3-0 there if Real wasn't that wasteful).

After a disastrous night like yesterday, his comments show that he is not willing to change his game plan. And please, don't tell me that we played THAT great in all other games this season, cause I will remind you the game vs City where we almost lost 1st place because of our non-defending approach.

Still remember that in the start of the season (Octomber), I told to a friend of mine that I find Guardiola's tactics way too risky and that a clever coach with fast players would destroy us. I remember mentioning City (lost 2-3), Dortmund (lost 0-3) and Real (lost 0-1, 0-4). Unfortunatelly my fears came true.

Another thing about last night was mentallity. I still remember in 2005 when we were playing against Chelsea with a way much inferior team than now. We had lost 4-2 in their ground, and we were losing 1-2 @ home. BUT we were attacking with menace and managed to score 2 goals between 90'-95' so we won 3-2. We didn't go through either but it was a good example of fighting spirit. Yesterday after 0-1 and even more after 0-2 our players looked defeated already, even though there were 70 minutes left to fight. That's a big problem in our mentallity IMO and we should fix that.


You've also forget to mention the 4-2 defeat vs BVB in the Super Cup.

I'd say this. We were lucky to win SC vs Chelsea and to play the Moroccan team in the WC cause otherwise we would have ended with only the Championship title
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby square » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:03 am

I think Pep did great especially this is just a first season for him. We better give him time to build the squad he want. Let's see what will happen next season.

By the way, we still have a game with BVB, so it should be a great test for us. Also, Pep might start changing his tactic this time.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:03 am

Lucky against Chelsea? No, against Chelsea we were not lucky. We were just determined to win, probably because it was the first time we won that trophy and because it was against Chelsea. As others have said we showed no determination at all yesterday.

We take the cup and and this will be the most successful first season for a Bayern coach ever.

EDIT: However I agree with all of you that not starting Martinez was suicide.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby shindouhikaru888 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:04 am

ramsej84 wrote:
shindouhikaru888 wrote:I've been thinking about it and i want to bring up something even though i don't post much. Remember how we all hope that we'll draw easy teams like Manu and others for the last 16 and quarter? I had a feeling back then that we will find things hard in the end, and wanted us to play stronger teams earlier. Real beat Schalke with an amazing margin then almost lost to an injured Dortmund which we would not have expected and improved, we on the other hand played easy teams and fail to realize our weaknesses. I think things would have turned around if things were not as easy for us at the start.


I don't think that vs Man U and Arsenal we had an easy evening! Until Arsenal had the GK sent off they were in the game as much as we were. And vs Utd it was not long ago so we all remember

Well this is just some thinking i had for a while. Anyways to reply to what u said, in the game against Arsenal they did no harm to us at all. People saying that they dominate for 18 minutes is generous enough, we also have half of the possession during that time which meant they dominated only for a few minutes. In the game against Manu, we were so confidence we'll take the win in the Allianz and Manu only had us nervous for a minute until we scored. Compared to what Real went over, loss to barcelona, loss in the league title, almost a loss to dortmund, we did not gone over as much.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:06 am

@nickman dont forget the most important tournament in the world is happening soon
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby SouthernStar » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:11 am

The discussions about the lack of cojones and thereof, there's one other player that I will point out I was massively disappointed on today: Neuer

He kept shouting/or demanded some sort of offside calls for both of Ramos' goals, it was sad. This happened with Poldi's goals too when him, Alaba and the CB (can't remember who now) shouted for foul on Lahm when they could have taken that time to concentrate on the coming threat. If it's offside, it will be offside. And it's really sad to see the players to try and call the refs to overturn a legitimate conceded goal instead of concentrating on the match.

As Oli would have said "we need balls, a lot more balls", only Lahm and Javi seems to have them more in abundance atm.

I'd say this. We were lucky to win SC vs Chelsea and to play the Moroccan team in the WC cause otherwise we would have ended with only the Championship title


ramsej, the comment on the Morrocan team is a bit harsh; they defeated Miniero - Ronaldinho's team, they deserved very much to be in the final. They show a lot of heart, come on.

As for Chelsea, we were indeed a bit lucky but remember that they are the ultimate park-the-bus team and coached by the guy who is obsessed about finding ways to beat Pep's system.
Last edited by SouthernStar on Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:14 am

square wrote:I think Pep did great especially this is just a first season for him. We better give him time to build the squad he want. Let's see what will happen next season.

By the way, we still have a game with BVB, so it should be a great test for us. Also, Pep might start changing his tactic this time.


In as much as i respect Pep, i realise after this game versus Real that maybe such teams like Real and the english leagues are preparng better long term.....bigger stronger...quicker
its the natural progression of sports
plus if we have the ball so long (first game) and dont have "planned ideas/attacks" then jamay its over chico Image
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:46 am

DerKaiser wrote:In as much as i respect Pep, i realise after this game versus Real that maybe such teams like Real and the english leagues are preparng better long term.....bigger stronger...quicker

How? The only English team that's been doing anything significant is Chelsea and I don't see how their style can guarantee any long term success, although it may come.

Real, well... Real have always had one of the best teams out there yet there is no escaping the fact that this is their first final in 12 years. For all we know, they might not win it and end the season with just the Copa del Rey, which is still a much worse season than ours. I can't see how they are preparing better for the long term than us. Real are at the stage we were last season, more or less. Next year they will be the ones to fear as we were this year. It will be against them that teams start parking the bus.

Hate him as much as you want (speaking in general here, I know DerKaiser is not anti-Pep), but it was necessary for us to evolve. Teams would have learnt how to play against last year's Bayern. This year we saw much more parked buses, we suffered significant injuries which would have given us trouble even last season. Our problem is that team's learnt how to cope with our new style too quickly, and therefore we must make some slight adjustments to fix that. But what guarantee is there that Real Madrid will also evolve? If they stick with Ancelotti I feel that it's more likely they will be doing more of the same, and ultimately, like us and every other team before them, they will fail to defend the CL (assuming they do win it after all).

What we need is a little less stubbornness. It is obvious that we need Martinez in midfield. That's the first step. And if Martinez or Schweinsteiger go down, we no longer need to move Lahm to midfield once we have Rode.

Another problem recently has been Mandzukic. Next year we will have Lewandowski, and when he's struggling we can switch to two strikers by adding Mandzukic. And hopefully Pizarro will still be here too.

Our defence is not bad, and I will keep insisting on this. With Martinez back in front of them it will look much better again. Against Real Madrid I only feel that we were horrible defensively in open play during the first half of the first leg. Yesterday set pieces were our doom, and after the first two goals lack of belief. In open play we did not defend badly. Now this defence may or may not be boosted by the return of Badstuber, and I think, although we cannot be certain, that we will also buy a new CB this summer.

Thiago will be back soon. Gotze will get more used to the team and style. Ribery may not be back to his best but he will certainly be better than he is at the moment. Hopefully Shaqiri will stay here.

Honestly guys there is not much too worry about. We didn't suddenly go from having one of the best sides in the club's history to being a mediocre side. We will surely be back stronger next season. I find it illogical to think otherwise.

As regards long-term planning I think the best ones are probably Borussia Dortmund and maybe Liverpool. But when it comes to the biggest names it is us, and perhaps PSG if we remove FFP from the equation.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:58 am

@fcbayernmunich consider nonetheless the thought in this all evolving athletic world we are too little. strategy is the German strength always has been, thats why teams like brazil had their flourish with skills, but eventually lost out to strategy. bigger stronger quicker
its happening in basketball and all other sports if we dont get on the bandwagon ....this is why gareth bale was so valuable , certainly not the money value and all, but bigger stronger faster.....but on the flip side its always to consider that these guys are all millionaires and how do u motivate a millionaire to do.....(dont ask ballotelli)
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:01 am

In that regard it's not the players though, but the tactics. Last season we had pretty much the same lineup (although we did drop one of our strongest players, Martinez) and we were very physical.

I'm not blaming the tactics for what's going on right now, like I've said in previous posts there were many more factors. The tactics need to change but not radically. But for the point you mentioned I see no choice but to blame tactics.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby pyrasur » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:09 am

Guardiola did as well as could be expected with our team yesterday. Our mistake was coming into this 0-1 down on aggregate. If we had the first goal, I feel our team's ability to keep the ball would have ended Real. as soon as it was 0-1, this is where the obsession with tiki-taka only doubles because we MUST score. How does anyone break through so many defenders? Is it with speed and directness? How many headers can Mandzukic be expected to win when he is competing with 6 Real Madrid defenders who don't give a crap where the ball goes as long as it goes away, and Mandzu has to get the ball past Casillas? ANY team that is chasing the lead like we were will spend a lot of time passing the ball around and looking for ways to get past ten players in the box. To be honest Real's 3rd, 4th, and 5th goals only add insult to a game that only going to gift us a lucky goal at best.

We were unstoppable last year because we were never chasing the game and to be honest we had a fair degree of luck for us. We never played the likes of Chelsea. Against Juventus we were lucky Alaba's shot went in the way it did from the beginning. We took apart a Barcelona that in 2013 was becoming a shadow of itself and which should have defeated Chelsea in 2012. Then we played Dortmund where maybe Dante gets a red card. We are always going to struggle against teams like Chelsea and Real that are experts defensively. It's is against those teams that we can not afford to give up a goal first. We need technical players like Ribery, Robben, and Kroos to do something magical in those close quarters. If those players aren't able to do something in that situation, then we need Goetze and Thiago and Shaqiri to take over from those guys.

As for Martinez, he was a beast yesterday in midfield. But other than affording height on the set pieces I am cautious about saying in retrospect that him starting would have affected the outcome of the game. Pep had him readying to come on even before half time after Real had scored either their first or second goal and I think Pep already knew the tie was done. Maybe he stops the ONE counterattack goal in open play that Real Madrid got. Or he makes it more obvious that Kroos's tackle was not a foul. Still, I liked what he did in midfield and hope he starts there in the future.
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Re: [2014-04-29] Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid

Postby AdepT » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:12 am

Much has been said and talked about. I'm probably over it now. Having dealt with the magnitude of 2012; even a few more goals would not have affected me much.

Except I just can't comprehend why the heck with the knowledge that counter-attack is the best way to beat us, a game plan was not developed? :evil:
I know the players disappointed yesterday. Leave the set pieces too. We are a counter-attacking team's meal and we don't use that ourselves too. I'm fine with not using it but FFS prepare a game plan to counter it. Don't play in such a high defensive line that your GK has to come out so far to clear that balls were being hit over his head for goals. If any one of them had gone in, that would have been the height of humiliation.
Pep has to rethink some of his game plans and obviously players need to give it their all. And as sad it is to say this, Ribery is a shadow of himself since his butt operation. Pep raus calls are stupid and I'm not a proponent of his 'too much possession-style'(sterile or not). Of course he'd have learnt some things today; I just wish he'd consider it.

Losses are fine, humiliations aren't. And at home. Hah! It has become a norm.

Next year is going to be a great year. Great because it's going to be full-on Bayern vs counter-attacks. Dortmund under Klopp; Leverkusen under Schmidt; let's see who Schalke get and obviously other teams. The competition is going to be stiff.
And I am pretty sure Pep would have to develop a plan against world-class counter-attacking teams.
It's going to a real test for him and his style.
And next year is what will decide his future at Bayern.
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