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[2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Bayern Munich will win
27
82%
It will end in a draw
2
6%
Manchester City will win
4
12%
 
Total votes : 33

Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby tflags » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:51 pm

MUTU wrote:I really don't get what you're trying to tell me :|


That I don't think suggesting Gomez right now would be a good idea. The endrity comment was a different thought altogether.
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby pyrasur » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:04 pm

Nice to see the Viola fans give him some appreciation though. Never understood how "fans" of the German national team can whistle at Gomez. For heaven's sake the guy just came back from a year-long injury, and the team just won the WORLD CUP.

Lewa will come good. He's at least creating his chances and provides several assists and opportunities for others. Still he must do better to put those chances away. There was no reason the game needed to be that close, or that anybody should think that Bayern wasn't dominating City while our first team watched from the box seats. ;)
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Lotharis1 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:51 pm

endrity wrote:
Lotharis1 wrote:Agreed, Boateng saved this game on so many occasions. Even without the goal he was clearly one of our top 3 players on the field.

Safe to say it's a work in progress.

I am a huge supporter of the 3-5-2 formation. This club seems as able of carrying it out as any. Although, the trouble with converting this team into a 3-5-2 is because of all the talent, you end up having to play a world class player or two out of position to make it work, and you chance alienating long term staples of what's made this club great.

Muller can play multiple positions, and it's tough deciding whether to play him as a 2nd striker, a creative attacking mid, or as a right flank.
Alaba makes a great wing back, but not a solid flank player, and isn't steady enough defensively to be a D-Mid (or even steady enough defensively to be a wing back)
Gotze is best as a creative midfielder or a 2nd striker, and yet it looks like Pep's fine using him on the flank where he doesn't belong.
etc.

It's also odd that Mandzukic left saying that he wanted out because Pep was asking him to play the high press, because Lewandowski doesn't seem to do all that much better applying the high press than Mandzukic does (although he's certainly an upgrade as a finisher). I would've liked to see the 2 of them playing together. I personally thing it was more of an ego thing for Mandzukic, feeling replaced by Lewandowski so why stick around.

Still, it's an awful great problem to have to be finding faults within the team after beating Man City in the CL!


Well let's start with a basic question: why do we need to play 3-5-2? Other than to perform change for sake of change, what is the motive to completely overhaul a team's extremely successful basic setup?

No one "need"s to do anything. It's all a matter of interpretation. Like it or not, Heynckes retired, and is no longer the coach, and, this is Guardiola's interpretation. Let's also not make it seem like Heynckes was the only coach ever to be successful at Bayern. There has often been a 3-5-2 employed by the Germans like the 86 and 90 world cup teams, and namely Hitzfeld with the team of the late 1990s to early 2000s.

For me a lone forward formation lacks finishers up top to draw away defenders for the creative mids.

Last year ended with Mandzukic alone up top without answers for the Real defense. They bunkered in and too much play was around the box and not enough penetration into it, or serious threats that drew coverage away and opened up space for the attacking midfielders to be able to move in and exploit.

Now, with the 3-5-2 you can play Lewandowski up top with Muller as a 2nd striker, with Pizarro making a great late game sub for either player (but not a great replacement for either as a lone forward), then Gotze/Tiago can slip in behind them as the attacking mid, and then you have Robben on the right flank, and Ribery out on the left flank. Then, because we have great D-Mids in Schweini, Martinez (eventhough he's been played on defense), and now Alonso instead, you have players who can cover well for playing overly offensive. It also allows you to play solid wing back defenders like Lahm, Rafinha, Alaba, etc. and not consider being exposed with them pulling forward, since Schweini and Alonso can track back and defend well, or snuff out chances in mid. Also, with sufficient offensive production out of those players you won't need to play wing backs, but rather solid center backs.

So for me, when everyone is healthy, it would look like that. I don't know if that's how Guardiola sees it, because everyone hasn't been healthy. I also know I've seen several of those players played in several different spots, like Lahm as a D-Mid, Alaba as a creative mid, Martinez as a back, etc.

We have a ton of players right, now, and the embarrassment of riches means no matter what formation is used, you're squandering something. When healthy, you can't play Robben, Muller, Rafinha, Shaqiri as right wings, you can't play Muller, Gotze, Tiago all as central attacking mids, you can't play Ribery, Alaba, Gotze, etc. as left flanks. Yes, that provides great depth for a team that plays in so many competitions, and has many aging and often injured players. However, it presents problems with egos, if you don't keep them all interested and making them believe they can see playing time.

That's where this becomes a challenge now for Guardiola.

The 3-5-2 also seems most versatile for me, able to easily become a 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 often times without even making the substitution to predicate it. However, easily swap on 1 player, and it can be anything.

Contrast that with your 4-2-3-1... If a team sits in on you, all too often you're left with a lot of flank play, and are stuck trying miserably to send long crosses into the box for a lone targetman, who is supposed to beat both the center backs on his own. It can break down, and leave you goalless without answers. So let's say it's late and you need offensive production... what do you do? You have to pull off 1 of the flat back 4, having to opt for exposing the center of your defense to counter attacks, or giving an unbalanced look on the flank by pulling off a wide full back, and you're playing into your opponents hand. Real Madrid exposed that. The other option is you take out one of your center mids, and put on a forward, then going 4-4-2 diamond, but at that point, you lack the creative force behind them with just a d-mid and attacking mid in the center of the pitch, and you're stuck trying to build down the flanks and sending long balls into the forwards.

With the 3-5-2, you're already in an offensive formation, but if you need goals all you do is switch out a D-Mid for an attacking mid, and you get more options into the attack, and more possession in the attacking half of the field, which can open up gaps for the 2 forwards to exploit. At this point, you're keeping your defense in tact, and everyone knows their marking assignments and tactical positioning without creating the kinds of indecision and misunderstandings that can often lead to gifting goals due to exposure on the counter when you're pressing late in the game.

Conversely, when you're in a lead, if you're in a 3-5-2, you can just take out 1 of the fowards, and add a center back, and you got a defensive 4-5-1, which will appear every bit the 4-2-3-1 you were looking for. However, given Bayern's roster, even before doing that, you can pull Muller out wide as the right flank, and insert Robben in as a center mid who uses his pace to break up possession and spring counters. He also has a way about earning free kicks using his pace and guile and killing time that way. and you got a 3-6-1, while that reserve player is getting warmed up, or if you're out of substitutions.
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Lotharis1 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:05 pm

endrity wrote:I guess I have missed Bernat's great CL experience, or the great contributions that Rafinha has especially in this tournament.

In a standard 4-2-3-1 Shaqiri has shown to be a very good player, not world class, but clearly someone that can play at a high level for Bayern. He is a much more proven player than Bernat, Rafinha, or Alaba and Lahm as CM.

Shaqiri as a D-Mid? Are you kidding me?

Yikes... Shaqiri could've played flank with Robben out, but I also have no problem with Rafinha in that position, and for a talented team like Man City that can be lethal on the counter, I'm happier to have seen Rafinha then Shaqiri.

Also, Shaqiri in some of these formations on the left flank? Really?

A lot of these comments seem like they're coming from people who just see names, and not have a clue what position are suited to several of these players games.

I prefer Lahm as a Left Back. If he's not Left Back, he makes a decent Right Back. D-Mid is the least of his effective positions. However, Lahm has proven that he can be a beast in the center of midfield at snuffing out attacks and controlling possession. I'd much prefer Lahm as a D-Mid to Rode, or several of the other names I've seen floated around, that either aren't good D-Mids, or even D-Mids at all. Rode has really been struggling to adapt to the team, and I'm not sure if he can make the jump up to this level.

Clearly the result on the field didn't look all that bad, did it?
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby AllensRoten » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:59 pm

@Lotharis1

Totally agree with the first part of your post concerning Rafinha over Shaqiri, and I don't even like Rafinha at Bayern but Shaqiri's crappy performances are enough for me to prefer Rafinha over Shaq.

Now, about Rode... What has given you the impression that Rode has been struggling to adapt? He's an all out ball winner, he knows that, pep knows that, and thats his role that he's excelled at so far. Even his positioning when attacking has been impressive. He doesn't shy away from taking shots at the top of the box similar to Basti and Kroos. I see Rode as the future for bayerns midfield.
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Korab » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:28 pm

Whatever the tactics and nominal positions of each player are, it is irrelevant, it takes so long time to mount offensive action that Bayern always faces prepared opposition, parked bus as you will. That style of play is Guardiola style. You can play like that when you’re 2 in front but not when you’re facing the draw. Just amazing what you can do with Bayern!
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Firefox1234 » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:55 pm

Lotharis1 wrote:
endrity wrote:
Lotharis1 wrote:Agreed, Boateng saved this game on so many occasions. Even without the goal he was clearly one of our top 3 players on the field.

Safe to say it's a work in progress.

I am a huge supporter of the 3-5-2 formation. This club seems as able of carrying it out as any. Although, the trouble with converting this team into a 3-5-2 is because of all the talent, you end up having to play a world class player or two out of position to make it work, and you chance alienating long term staples of what's made this club great.

Muller can play multiple positions, and it's tough deciding whether to play him as a 2nd striker, a creative attacking mid, or as a right flank.
Alaba makes a great wing back, but not a solid flank player, and isn't steady enough defensively to be a D-Mid (or even steady enough defensively to be a wing back)
Gotze is best as a creative midfielder or a 2nd striker, and yet it looks like Pep's fine using him on the flank where he doesn't belong.
etc.

It's also odd that Mandzukic left saying that he wanted out because Pep was asking him to play the high press, because Lewandowski doesn't seem to do all that much better applying the high press than Mandzukic does (although he's certainly an upgrade as a finisher). I would've liked to see the 2 of them playing together. I personally thing it was more of an ego thing for Mandzukic, feeling replaced by Lewandowski so why stick around.

Still, it's an awful great problem to have to be finding faults within the team after beating Man City in the CL!


Well let's start with a basic question: why do we need to play 3-5-2? Other than to perform change for sake of change, what is the motive to completely overhaul a team's extremely successful basic setup?

No one "need"s to do anything. It's all a matter of interpretation. Like it or not, Heynckes retired, and is no longer the coach, and, this is Guardiola's interpretation. Let's also not make it seem like Heynckes was the only coach ever to be successful at Bayern. There has often been a 3-5-2 employed by the Germans like the 86 and 90 world cup teams, and namely Hitzfeld with the team of the late 1990s to early 2000s.

For me a lone forward formation lacks finishers up top to draw away defenders for the creative mids.

Last year ended with Mandzukic alone up top without answers for the Real defense. They bunkered in and too much play was around the box and not enough penetration into it, or serious threats that drew coverage away and opened up space for the attacking midfielders to be able to move in and exploit.

Now, with the 3-5-2 you can play Lewandowski up top with Muller as a 2nd striker, with Pizarro making a great late game sub for either player (but not a great replacement for either as a lone forward), then Gotze/Tiago can slip in behind them as the attacking mid, and then you have Robben on the right flank, and Ribery out on the left flank. Then, because we have great D-Mids in Schweini, Martinez (eventhough he's been played on defense), and now Alonso instead, you have players who can cover well for playing overly offensive. It also allows you to play solid wing back defenders like Lahm, Rafinha, Alaba, etc. and not consider being exposed with them pulling forward, since Schweini and Alonso can track back and defend well, or snuff out chances in mid. Also, with sufficient offensive production out of those players you won't need to play wing backs, but rather solid center backs.

So for me, when everyone is healthy, it would look like that. I don't know if that's how Guardiola sees it, because everyone hasn't been healthy. I also know I've seen several of those players played in several different spots, like Lahm as a D-Mid, Alaba as a creative mid, Martinez as a back, etc.

We have a ton of players right, now, and the embarrassment of riches means no matter what formation is used, you're squandering something. When healthy, you can't play Robben, Muller, Rafinha, Shaqiri as right wings, you can't play Muller, Gotze, Tiago all as central attacking mids, you can't play Ribery, Alaba, Gotze, etc. as left flanks. Yes, that provides great depth for a team that plays in so many competitions, and has many aging and often injured players. However, it presents problems with egos, if you don't keep them all interested and making them believe they can see playing time.

That's where this becomes a challenge now for Guardiola.

The 3-5-2 also seems most versatile for me, able to easily become a 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-4-2 often times without even making the substitution to predicate it. However, easily swap on 1 player, and it can be anything.

Contrast that with your 4-2-3-1... If a team sits in on you, all too often you're left with a lot of flank play, and are stuck trying miserably to send long crosses into the box for a lone targetman, who is supposed to beat both the center backs on his own. It can break down, and leave you goalless without answers. So let's say it's late and you need offensive production... what do you do? You have to pull off 1 of the flat back 4, having to opt for exposing the center of your defense to counter attacks, or giving an unbalanced look on the flank by pulling off a wide full back, and you're playing into your opponents hand. Real Madrid exposed that. The other option is you take out one of your center mids, and put on a forward, then going 4-4-2 diamond, but at that point, you lack the creative force behind them with just a d-mid and attacking mid in the center of the pitch, and you're stuck trying to build down the flanks and sending long balls into the forwards.

With the 3-5-2, you're already in an offensive formation, but if you need goals all you do is switch out a D-Mid for an attacking mid, and you get more options into the attack, and more possession in the attacking half of the field, which can open up gaps for the 2 forwards to exploit. At this point, you're keeping your defense in tact, and everyone knows their marking assignments and tactical positioning without creating the kinds of indecision and misunderstandings that can often lead to gifting goals due to exposure on the counter when you're pressing late in the game.

Conversely, when you're in a lead, if you're in a 3-5-2, you can just take out 1 of the fowards, and add a center back, and you got a defensive 4-5-1, which will appear every bit the 4-2-3-1 you were looking for. However, given Bayern's roster, even before doing that, you can pull Muller out wide as the right flank, and insert Robben in as a center mid who uses his pace to break up possession and spring counters. He also has a way about earning free kicks using his pace and guile and killing time that way. and you got a 3-6-1, while that reserve player is getting warmed up, or if you're out of substitutions.


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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby pyrasur » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:16 pm

Lotharis1 wrote:
endrity wrote:In a standard 4-2-3-1 Shaqiri has shown to be a very good player, not world class, but clearly someone that can play at a high level for Bayern. He is a much more proven player than Bernat, Rafinha, or Alaba and Lahm as CM.

Shaqiri as a D-Mid? Are you kidding me?

Yikes... Shaqiri could've played flank with Robben out, but I also have no problem with Rafinha in that position, and for a talented team like Man City that can be lethal on the counter, I'm happier to have seen Rafinha then Shaqiri.

Also, Shaqiri in some of these formations on the left flank? Really?

A lot of these comments seem like they're coming from people who just see names, and not have a clue what position are suited to several of these players games.

I prefer Lahm as a Left Back. If he's not Left Back, he makes a decent Right Back. D-Mid is the least of his effective positions. However, Lahm has proven that he can be a beast in the center of midfield at snuffing out attacks and controlling possession. I'd much prefer Lahm as a D-Mid to Rode, or several of the other names I've seen floated around, that either aren't good D-Mids, or even D-Mids at all. Rode has really been struggling to adapt to the team, and I'm not sure if he can make the jump up to this level.


I like what you offer about the 3-5-2. Certainly as Endrity says Shaqiri can play a midfield role in the center, though he's only done so as an attacking midfielder and then only convincingly for Switzerland. As for Rode, he had a very good game against Schalke and he was a large factor for Bayern managing to get a draw at the Veltins Arena. The second half the whole team struggled and I'm not sure Rode could have done more. Still, Rode and the other guys like Hojbjerg and Gaudino need to convince the manager at the training sessions as well that they are viable options.

I suspect Lahm has a big say in where he is positioned, and he seemed quite adamant over the summer that he wanted to be a central midfielder for Germany despite our weaknesses at fullback. Maybe that was my impression. Nevertheless, Lahm has in Guardiola a manager who has a history of making accommodations for special key players. It made Barcelona a better TEAM, but Guardiola wasn't afraid to drop certain star names in order to fit that ONE special player in a key position. Went from having Ibrahimovic up front and Messi on the wing to Messi central and Pedro out on the wing.
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Re: [2014-09-17] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby JANCKER » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:22 am

That right wing slot is reserved for Robben and there's no discussion about it, that is a spot where Shaqiri and Mueller perform best too, Mueller is more versatile than Shaq is. The problem is our left wing, cause no one of our actual players is capable of replacing Ribs, the replacements we got in disposition for him prefer the right wing or CAM.
I'm waiting for the new season to see if the club will make a move to boost the left wing if Ribs doesn't find his form and others just don't perform in that side. Shaq is already gone for me, only a miracle can save him now, he'll do much better in a team that doesn't have Robben or Mueller.
The manager knows better than us what he's got in disposition, cause he(and Tedesco) meets them on a daily basis, unlike us. Playing too much PES, FIFA, Football Manager, etc can distort views on reality, leave it to the experts.
I think there is more to it than just PES, FIFA, it's about Pep also, 'the Pep excuse' if our team fails - he ruined what Heynckes left, etc. Robots aren't yet playing football, so why players have to be limited to only 1 position? 1 task? And expect them to perform every time the same, like they have buttons. All clubs except of 1 or 2 maybe, wish they were in our place, and I just don't get it, why all this negativity, that goes in the same package with humanity I guess. We're crushing BPL champions regularly, we've been taking all their most important transfer targets and we're still complaining, human nature...
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