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[2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:45 pm

Bayern Munich will win
21
91%
It will end in a draw
2
9%
Manchester City will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 23

Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:52 am

Thiago is trying too much when at CDM...his role is to pass it around and get it out of the defense...but he constantly tries through passes and gives the ball to opposition. That is not his job and that is why we lose posession. Pep probably sees that.

But when we have him as CDM we are much more fluent and in command [when he doesnt try to over pass]. First 25 minutes were great. We had posession and control over the pitch but than after they scored we tried too much to show them we are the BOSS and started acting stupid and didnt stick to our game plan.

Thiago as CDM and Kroos dropping deeper to help him is working fine as long as we keep it tight and dont lose the ball. I am sure Pep will have a talk to Thiago about keeping the ball rather than trying to pass through 3 of their midfielders.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby quaazi » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:55 am

Image

give him a cricket bat and have him wait in the dressing room and I guarantee you there won't be any complacency issues in the squad. :lol:

anyway, I didn't see the game but I gather it was Arsenal Mk.II?
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby MoFattal » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:06 pm

quaazi wrote: I didn't see the game but I gather it was Arsenal Mk.II?


Almost exactly the same.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Firefox1234 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:06 pm

I like the attitude of the forum, i am always a afriaid if Pep loses a match everyone loses their minds but we all know that wasnt the real Bayern playing in the second half. I dont want to make excuses cause Bayern deserved to lose in my opinion but Bayern did a lot of good things in this game too. This was probably the first game i thought Bayern were dangerous when they had a set piece and of course my favorite players in Muller and Gotze scored. :P
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby MoFattal » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:15 pm

Firefox1234 wrote: cause Bayern deserved to lose in my opinion


I'd say "deserved to lose" is a bit harsh. Last night's City would lose 99 out of a 100 games against us. Nothing special whatsoever and weren't really dangerous or put us under pressure. Actually, it was towards the boring kind of games because our guys decided to take a nap for most of the time. They just scored from a LvGish defensive laps, a dive leading to a PK, and an imitation of the Petersen slip by Boateng to clear (or not to) the ball. Like Sammer said after the game (something like): "City themselves don't know how they won 2-3". But yeah, the wake-up call has been due for sometime now and it came in the right game.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:16 pm

MUTU wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:I am not against that, but at least 1 of Martinez, Schweini, or Lahm has to be on the field at all times.

With one of them on the field (Lahm) for 55 minutes, we conceded 1 goal
With two of them on the field (Lahm and Martinez) for 35 minutes, we conceded 2 goals.

I meant to say in midfield (regarding Lahm)
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Robb3449 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:21 pm

Just watched the game and while it's certainly a disappointing performance I have to agree (with most) that this loss comes at a good time. A meaningless loss and still win the group. Definitely not the end of the world.

And let's not forget that if not for a very weak penalty on Dante and Boa doing a "riverdance" Bayern still win. Neuer nearly got a leg to Silva's goal. This all, despite shutting off and coasting through about three quarters of the match.

This presents Pep the opportunity to do some fine-tuning and gives Sammer the opportunity to go all "Sammer" on the players. I'm hoping by the time they get from the winter break the players will be "frothing" at the mouth, ready to destroy all opponents. I'm sure this a wake-up call.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby walter » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:52 pm

I have to agree (with most) that this loss comes at a good time.


It comes at the best time: last game of the group stage, meaningless in terms of place in the group, but a badly needed kick in the butt to make sure we are not getting too complacent in the knockout stages.

PS. Martinez looked a little bit like a headless chicken. He does seems to play better with Schweinsteiger on the field.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby envagyokazapad » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:02 pm

walter wrote:
I have to agree (with most) that this loss comes at a good time.

PS. Martinez looked a little bit like a headless chicken. He does seems to play better with Schweinsteiger on the field.


I noticed that too, since our CBs constantly step up to the midfield in Pep's system Martinez doesn't seem to know what to do, or where to be at times, and I'm getting the feeling that for now Pep doesn't really have a place for him in his system (which is probably why he played him so far up against Dortmund...) either.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:12 pm

Our whole gameplay depends on fast thinking CMD, who is good at positioning and passing it around. That is why Martinez is lost. He is quite solid technicaly but cant match Thiago, Schweini or even Lahm. I think that Lahm did quite good...even better than Schweini [who was not 100% fit] when it comes to transition from defense to midfield/attack.

Thiago is perfect for that role but than again he needs more time and needs to be more accurate.

Just compare Kroos with Thiago...he has much better percantage of pass success even if he play more upfield with less space.

Let's see what happens after Schweini comes back.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Rauntšik » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:38 pm

MUTU wrote:
James Milner, who scored City’s winner, said: “We thought it needed to be 5-2.” [source]


I thought it too, they had to beat us by 3 goals, I can't understand why they needed a 4-2 score?
Maybe someone can explain it to me.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Borusse » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:40 pm

Because you beat them 3-1 away, so by 2 goals. You had 3 away goals so if they would beat you 4-2 they would beat you by 2 goals with 4 away goals therefore they would win the tie.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby AssemFCB » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:41 pm

They needed a 4-2 win because 4-2 cancels out Bayern's 3-1 away win, but with more away goals.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Badger » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:45 pm

I watched the whole Bayern Munich v Manchester City game last night. It was certainly a disappointing result, but it was also a very interesting study. I tried to put myself in Guardiola’s position to guess what he’d take from the match and what he’d do about it. The main observations fall into four broad areas: (1)Bayern’s individual howlers (2) Bayern’s ineffectiveness (3) Manchester City’s effectiveness and (4)refereeing and luck. The main reasons for these groupings are that each needs the right amount of emphasis – neither overemphasised nor underemphasised – and needs handled in a different way.

Bayern’s individual howlers
Some of Bayern’s defensive play was weak – more about that later – but a few errors were so awful that they must be regarded as individual howlers. They were gifts to Manchester City, resulting in two of the goals and nearly causing a third as well. Dante’s foul in the box for the penalty, his later loss of the ball in the box and Boateng’s absolute mishit of the ball in the box, were all errors that were quite amateurish and unnecessary. The pressure the players were under was typical at this competitive level rather than excessive. What can Guardiola do? Well, it is almost worth doing nothing. These players have been solid all season, the errors so uncharacteristic, and the personal embarrassment so acute (especially for Boateng) that it could be safely reasoned that the players will not repeat such mistakes for a long time. Dropping them is an overreaction, although van Buyten’s form does suggested that a little rotation may do no harm anyway. At most, a private chat with them about concentration and risks in the box is all that should be done.

Bayern’s ineffectiveness
For the first 20 minutes Bayern were magnificent, but a number of problems and areas of ineffectiveness appeared after that, which were never really resolved in the course of the game.

Firstly, some have mentioned complacency; I’d prefer to describe it as underestimating the opponent, which is nearly, but not quite, the same thing. This second XI from Manchester City always had the potential for flashes of good football, and needed to be respected, even at 2-0 down. I doubt whether the combination of meaningless game, second XI opponents and 2-0 lead at home will occur again; all future opponents in the later stages of this season’s Champions League competition will be respected automatically until the final whistle is blown in each game. Guardiola should, however, watch for and warn about complacency in Bundesliga games, because two draws when Bayern could have won mean that Leverkusen could catch up and overtake Bayern.

Secondly, the defence, aside from the howlers, was poor. The positional play and collaboration of the four Bayern defenders was inadequate. At the top level, each defender needs to know his role, know the roles of the other defenders, know where each is on the pitch and know where the opponents’ attackers are. They virtually need eyes in the back of their head – or need 100% concentration and to be looking behind them frequently. The first and third Manchester City goals were classic examples of inadequate awareness. Guardiola needs to lecture on awareness and strategic positioning.

Thirdly, the midfielders and strikers did not help out enough in defence. This is a big topic. In recent games, it seems as if Guardiola is encouraging players to focus more on crowding the opponents and intercepting the ball than on tackling. Generally speaking, that is working, and since most injuries occur as a result of tackling or being tackled, it is a good approach if it can be made to work. But there are times when tackling is needed. Bayern were notable last year for their midfielders and strikers tracking back to help out with defence, and at times Mandzukic, Ribery, Robben and others made fantastic tackles. Recently, very little of this has been seen, and in this Manchester City game it was woefully scarce. Guardiola recognised some of this and took off Goetze to bring on Martinez – albeit with less effect than would have been expected. Now, Guardiola will need to expand his strategies of when to play interception and when to tackle, and encourage all the midfielders to contribute more to all of it. That said, it was right not to overemphasise a hard tackling game against Manchester City; the game was fairly meaningless, and a 3-2 defeat with no injuries was better than a win at the price of more injured players.

Fourthly, there were problems with both Alcantara and Martinez in defending the territory just in front the defence. Possibly, Bayern haven’t yet found the ideal player for the defensive-midfield position. Several are very good, if not yet complete. Ultimately, the position needs to be filled by someone who is not just a destroyer (like Gustavo) but who can patrol and command the area (like Martinez) and who can quickly build up attacks from that deep position (like Alcantara). Martinez, when he came on against Manchester City, didn’t have a great game, and Alcantara didn’t have enough presence and command of the area when Manchester City started stringing things together. I think that Alcantara is the hope of the future in that position, and his game, while almost complete as an attacking midfielder, is not nearly as complete as a defensive midfielder. I suspect that Guardiola will keep trying him in that position, but a lot more individual tutoring is needed quickly, on reading the game for that position, on commanding the area and on not playing loose passes in his own half. That said, I can still agree that it was a good game to try him out – indeed, maybe even a very good game, because it highlighted some weaknesses that need addressed.

Fifthly, they were caught by surprise by Manchester City’s ability in midfield.
(More about this in the next section.)

Sixthly, they lost their ability to penetrate Manchester City’s final third and get shots on target.
In the second half, the Manchester City goal was really only under threat from set-pieces. That is not enough from Bayern. They have variation in attack, and need to go all guns blazing when a defence seems to be holding out well. Somewhere a defender’s concentration will fail to cover all the variants and a goal should follow. Guardiola needs to emphasise energetic attacks and attacking with more variety when things go quiet.

Manchester City’s effectiveness
Manchester City did one thing that Bayern have rarely seen this season. After initial setbacks, they matched the numbers of players in midfield and started to pass well and hold possession in midfield. Guardiola’s possession-oriented style of play depends on a team of skilful players passing very accurately, good movement off the ball and lots of practice. Few teams have the skill levels to do that, especially against Bayern themselves. But Manchester City have bought top individuals over several years, and they demonstrated that they can do that – perhaps not quite as well as Bayern, but well enough to surprise and challenge Bayern. Bayern took too long to find an answer to that, especially when they weren’t tackling aggressively enough and were still reeling from the goals around the hour mark. It was the most valuable lesson from the whole game. Guardiola has the answers – more aggressive tackling, hard pressing, careful passing, etc – and can instil these things into the players, but the important aspect is to recognise an opponent’s ability to deliver such a game effectively and then to put Plan B into operation quickly.

Refereeing and Luck
Both refereeing an luck can play a role, and it is usually a waste of time to overemphasise either of them, because they can’t be changed. A team must play with enough contingency to win in spite of them. The penalty was harsh, but Dante needs to know that quite a few referees will give a penalty, if he knocks down the player without getting the ball. The consequences of Boateng’s mishit was unlucky, because of where Milner was positioned, but perhaps the defenders need to be reminded that nothing risky should be attempted in the box. And so forth. After the Manchester City match, the minor roles of refereeing and luck in that game need a brief analysis so that the overall set of countermeasures Guardiola presents doesn’t address the wrong root causes. But that is about all.

Overall, a draw might have been the fairest result on the night, but the loss, the embarrassment and the lessons at this key stage in the season are far more valuable than any lucky escape.
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Re: [2013-12-10] Bayern Munich vs Manchester City

Postby Kevinx67 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:02 am

It's so funny how people think the game was a meaningless loss. I think Pep just didn't have an answer. Once Zabaleta came on Ribery was a non factor. Bayern had no answer for Silva. To me Pep only has a plan A and no plan B. Don't be surprised Man City beat Barca.
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