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[2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue May 12, 2015 7:45 pm

Bayern Munich will win
18
51%
It will end in a draw
2
6%
FC Barcelona will win
15
43%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Badger » Tue May 19, 2015 10:03 pm

By the time Bayern met Barcelona, their available players, including some walking wounded, were about the 3rd or 4th best team in Europe. They went out to the team that, at this same moment in the season, is probably the best in Europe. That is no surprise, no disgrace and no underachievement. (The cup loss to Dortmund, although for a lesser trophy, was more of an underachievement.)

Moreover:
I have watched and puzzled over Guardiola's high defensive line many times. (And I puzzled over 4-1-4-1 prior to that too.) The conclusion I'm coming to is that Guardiola, a world class player in his day, could have played and anchored the defensive midfield role in those tactics, and he thinks other players could succeed with them too. I am now beginning to believe that he probably hasn't got the players at Bayern for such tactics to win at the highest level. The players are good enough at it to win the domestic German competitions, and to reach the late stages of the Champions League, but the Spanish teams (and perhaps others in future) are too good for that combination of players and tactics. I watched the second Barcelona game on ITV, where one of the pundits was Roy Keane - not a player or person I particularly care for. But he described the Bayern defence as very poor, making schoolboy errors, and added that no manager or tactics could be held accountable when the defence played as they did. It sounded a bit harsh. And I didn't care for his description of Boating and Benatia - players I think highly of. Then ITV showed replays of some of the goals and Barcelona's other chances. It was as bad as he said. There was very poor positioning, very poor tracking and very poor concentration. No, I don't want to make Boateng and Benatia scapegoats; they're really good players. But the Barcelona games were something of a tipping point for me in concluding that we haven't the players to succeed with those tactics at the highest level.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RedQueen » Tue May 19, 2015 10:10 pm

Badger wrote:No, I don't want to make Boateng and Benatia scapegoats; they're really good players. But the Barcelona games were something of a tipping point for me in concluding that we haven't the players to succeed with those tactics at the highest level.

I stand by it. I doubt that the players who would succeed with those tactics at the highest level even exist. Would you care to name the players that would succeed? Or are androids required for it?
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Badger » Tue May 19, 2015 10:31 pm

RedQueen wrote:
Badger wrote:No, I don't want to make Boateng and Benatia scapegoats; they're really good players. But the Barcelona games were something of a tipping point for me in concluding that we haven't the players to succeed with those tactics at the highest level.

I stand by it. I doubt that the players who would succeed with those tactics at the highest level even exist. Would you care to name the players that would succeed? Or are androids required for it?


My post didn't necessarily imply that I think other players out there could step in and succeed. Badstuber's concentration may be slightly superior to that of the others who played (though his overall game might not) and Alaba's reaction time and pace may help bolster the defence. (Sometimes Neuer has been more of a sweeper keeper than in those Barcelona games too.) Maybe a few weeks ago I'd have held out more hope that some combinations of players could have succeeded at the highest level, as I still hoped that the Bayern defence, with its superb Bundesliga record, could do it. Those Barcelona games were, as I say, a tipping point for me. I fear now that Messi, Neymar and Suarez could rip up just about anybody's high defensive line.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Tue May 19, 2015 10:38 pm

Badger wrote:
RedQueen wrote:
Badger wrote:No, I don't want to make Boateng and Benatia scapegoats; they're really good players. But the Barcelona games were something of a tipping point for me in concluding that we haven't the players to succeed with those tactics at the highest level.

I stand by it. I doubt that the players who would succeed with those tactics at the highest level even exist. Would you care to name the players that would succeed? Or are androids required for it?


My post didn't necessarily imply that I think other players out there could step in and succeed. Badstuber's concentration may be slightly superior to that of the others who played (though his overall game might not) and Alaba's reaction time and pace may help bolster the defence. (Sometimes Neuer has been more of a sweeper keeper than in those Barcelona games too.) Maybe a few weeks ago I'd have held out more hope that some combinations of players could have succeeded at the highest level, as I still hoped that the Bayern defence, with its superb Bundesliga record, could do it. Those Barcelona games were, as I say, a tipping point for me. I fear now that Messi, Neymar and Suarez could rip up just about anybody's high defensive line.


I think that Javi also has really good defensive concentration, which was also mentioned in the book. One reason that I think Pep likes to play him as the main man in defense. Badstuber also is tactically astute and has good concentration. A good fit for Pep.

I think that Boateng is really high up there as a ball-playing defender, but his concentration is still not quite there. But this was a topic of discussion even before Pep.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RedQueen » Tue May 19, 2015 10:41 pm

Badger wrote: I fear now that Messi, Neymar and Suarez could rip up just about anybody's high defensive line.

Then maybe it would be wise in such circumstances to reconsider the high defensive line.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Badger » Tue May 19, 2015 10:47 pm

RedQueen wrote:
Badger wrote: I fear now that Messi, Neymar and Suarez could rip up just about anybody's high defensive line.

Then maybe it would be wise in such circumstances to reconsider the high defensive line.


Although it wasn't explicitly stated, I thought that that was fairly obvious from my posts. I hope Pep abandons, or significantly modifies, that high defensive line next season. I don't want Bayern to look for other signings to try it further with them. We've tried it long enough.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RedQueen » Tue May 19, 2015 10:56 pm

I've got nothing against the high defensive line per se. I only ask for having enough flexibility to abandon it when it isn't appropriate under the circumstances given.

My main point is, is Pep Guardiola prepared to abandon it in those circumstances? Or does he insist on imposing it no matter what?

If he is, he's welcome to stay. If he isn't, the sooner he leaves, the better.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Badger » Tue May 19, 2015 11:03 pm

RedQueen wrote:I've got nothing against the high defensive line per se. I only ask for having enough flexibility to abandon it when it isn't appropriate under the circumstances given.

My main point is, is Pep Guardiola prepared to abandon it in those circumstances? Or does he insist on imposing it no matter what?

If he is, he's welcome to stay. If he isn't, the sooner he leaves, the better.


I don't know whether you belong to this nonsense camp that claims Pep is stubborn (I haven't read enough of your posts to know) but Pep tried and abandoned 4-1-4-1, so there's no reason to believe he wouldn't abandon the high defensive line in its current unsuccessful form - at least against the big opponents.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Tue May 19, 2015 11:04 pm

I don't have anything against the high line per se, and it worked for 77 mins, but I think that it's a big mistake that whenever we concede we lose our composure and just attack even harder. It was a big mistake to keep playing the high line and keep attacking after we conceded in Barcelona. It's even worse when we concede early like against Wolfsburg or Porto.

I don't really know what he was thinking with the subs either [-X
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RedQueen » Tue May 19, 2015 11:05 pm

Badger wrote:I don't know whether you belong to this nonsense camp that claims Pep is stubborn (I haven't read enough of your posts to know) but Pep tried and abandoned 4-1-4-1, so there's no reason to believe he wouldn't abandon the high defensive line in its current unsuccessful form - at least against the big opponents.

So far I've seen little evidence he will.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RedQueen » Tue May 19, 2015 11:12 pm

sws wrote:I don't have anything against the high line per se, and it worked for 77 mins

No, I'm sorry, it didn't work. The entire first half at Camp Nou it was all about Neuer, Boateng and Benatia bailing the team out. A tactical approach that's working out doesn't require that kind of fire brigade. A tactical approach that's working out means the team is in control of the game, and they clearly weren't in that first half.

And again, it's not just about Barca. You could witness it in the games against Wolfsburg, and against Cologne, Hannover and Gladbach. It doesn't need a Messi to dismantle the high line.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Badger » Tue May 19, 2015 11:14 pm

RedQueen wrote:
Badger wrote:I don't know whether you belong to this nonsense camp that claims Pep is stubborn (I haven't read enough of your posts to know) but Pep tried and abandoned 4-1-4-1, so there's no reason to believe he wouldn't abandon the high defensive line in its current unsuccessful form - at least against the big opponents.

So far I've seen little evidence he will.


Well, what evidence do you expect to see? Virtually everything else he tried and abandoned had little evidence prior to its abandonment. There are simply enough cases of him abandoning other failed experiments to indicate that the high defensive line can be another.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Tue May 19, 2015 11:32 pm

RedQueen wrote:
sws wrote:I don't have anything against the high line per se, and it worked for 77 mins

No, I'm sorry, it didn't work. The entire first half at Camp Nou it was all about Neuer, Boateng and Benatia bailing the team out. A tactical approach that's working out doesn't require that kind of fire brigade. A tactical approach that's working out means the team is in control of the game, and they clearly weren't in that first half.

And again, it's not just about Barca. You could witness it in the games against Wolfsburg, and against Cologne, Hannover and Gladbach. It doesn't need a Messi to dismantle the high line.


I'm not an advocate of the high line. I couldn't care less whether we use it or not. It, like a 3-man backline, can work just fine depending on circumstances and personnel. It's hard to believe that Pep would have had as high of a line against Barca, without Neuer and Boateng and Benatia ahead of him.

Take the 2nd leg vs. Porto for example. We played a typical high line and we won it 6-1. The first leg we lost 3-1. Both high lines. A couple seasons ago we lost 5-3 to BVB, without as high a line. A high-line doesn't necessarily need a Messi to dismantle it, but that's true of any defensive line. I think our defensive issues go deeper than just the height of our defensive line.

I think most of us could live without the high-line but I don't think it's really the end all be all. Is Pep too stubborn to change it? Well he did in a couple of games (BVB and Leverkusen) but I can't really say in general.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed May 20, 2015 12:27 am

sws wrote:
RedQueen wrote:
sws wrote:I don't have anything against the high line per se, and it worked for 77 mins

No, I'm sorry, it didn't work. The entire first half at Camp Nou it was all about Neuer, Boateng and Benatia bailing the team out. A tactical approach that's working out doesn't require that kind of fire brigade. A tactical approach that's working out means the team is in control of the game, and they clearly weren't in that first half.

And again, it's not just about Barca. You could witness it in the games against Wolfsburg, and against Cologne, Hannover and Gladbach. It doesn't need a Messi to dismantle the high line.


I'm not an advocate of the high line. I couldn't care less whether we use it or not. It, like a 3-man backline, can work just fine depending on circumstances and personnel. It's hard to believe that Pep would have had as high of a line against Barca, without Neuer and Boateng and Benatia ahead of him.

Take the 2nd leg vs. Porto for example. We played a typical high line and we won it 6-1. The first leg we lost 3-1. Both high lines. A couple seasons ago we lost 5-3 to BVB, without as high a line. A high-line doesn't necessarily need a Messi to dismantle it, but that's true of any defensive line. I think our defensive issues go deeper than just the height of our defensive line.

I think most of us could live without the high-line but I don't think it's really the end all be all. Is Pep too stubborn to change it? Well he did in a couple of games (BVB and Leverkusen) but I can't really say in general.

We actually play better with the high line and aggressive defending. We just don't know how to park the bus.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Wed May 20, 2015 12:56 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:We actually play better with the high line and aggressive defending. We just don't know how to park the bus.


Same goes for a lot of attacking/possession based teams. Porto looked so lost in the first half of the 2nd leg. Whenever Barca aren't actively attacking they look uncomfortable too.
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