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[2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue May 12, 2015 7:45 pm

Bayern Munich will win
18
51%
It will end in a draw
2
6%
FC Barcelona will win
15
43%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby rosalestri » Sun May 17, 2015 4:20 am

In all honesty, we can argue about "the best tactic/formation" all what we want... at the end of the day, we don't have the inside info the coaches/manager have/has/had.

I'm not going to "hate" on Pep or even defend him. The biggest thing here is "why are some of this players getting hurt so often?" some of the injures were probably unavoidable (Alaba, Martinez, Ribery, Lahm come to mind). However, some of the other guys ummmmm (Robben, Rode, Benatia, anyone who had muscular issues) we can argue about the training load. The abdominal injury Robben had was the end of the season for him! seriously, that kind of muscular problem in a world class athlete is a sign of fatigue (especially past the mid point of the season) too much running, too much pressing, too many minutes... that kind of workload destroys the human body! The fact that he came back and torn another muscle proves my point. Mentally he wanted to be there and carry the team, but physically the guy has been playing at a very high level for over 28 months for Bayern and the Dutch.

at this pace, yeah Robben will be hurt next year, same goes for Bastian, and Frank, and anyone who is being asked to run like a maniac week in and out for over 6 months at the highest level of football (over the age of 30). This is not a Bayern "bad luck" deal. Back then, Pep had similar issues in Barcelona... Alexis is one of the guys who suffered the most (physically, Ronaldinho had issues as well even tho people complained about his lack of commitment to his training). Mark my words, anyone over 30 will have to take some matches off, anyone under better watch out the minutes they are playing (even with their NT).

Jupp would have had a more conservative approach in Barcelona...If Pep wants to have the whole squad running around like maniacs with a high line, the front office needs to find fast/fit mid 20 year old super stars and bring them to Bayern. Otherwise, the team will have a hard time being successful next season.

Rant over :)
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby dambun » Sun May 17, 2015 5:35 am

rosalestri wrote:The biggest thing here is "why are some of this players getting hurt so often?"

I agree... this issue should be disscussed....
Although, we've always had awful injury problems right after each world cup... and the situation is certainly worse for us, because we have a couple of injury-prone players, such as Schweini, Ribery and Robben...

To me, the odds of having both Ribery/Robben injured is not negligible... which brings us to the next important question: WHY haven't we thought of it in our Kaderplanung??!! we needed at least one (if not 2) alternatives for the explosive/speedy wings position...

back to your subject of discussion, Robben's first injury happened because he was very harshly fouled by Gladbach's Jantschke when Robben had started a fast counter attack, and was at full speed... I remember the scene very vividly... The way he was thrown into air and fell on the ground, I thought to myself, it would be a miracle if he is not seriously injured... (and such fouls, no matter their severity, are only penalized by a yellow card in Germany!)

I agree with you that some of our players seem very injured from time to time... IMO Pep does not rotate as much as he should... he should give our youngsters more playing time in order to (1) prevent our main players from getting fatigued/injured, (2) getting the youngsters ready for the days we may be forced to use them in important matches...
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Mon May 18, 2015 1:43 pm

YlonenXabi wrote: Yea, which were the correct tactics for this match?


I do not know, my annual income from football is too far from the €17 million per year that Guardiola makes, for sure he did not have the best plan: he lost. I respect your right to support the idea that he got it all correct though.


YlonenXabi wrote: What do you think that Heynckes could have done for this draw against Barça?


I do not know what he could have done, I do not speak to him but I certainly know what he did.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Mon May 18, 2015 2:01 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Can you tell me where is Schalke now because of the injuries? :lol: And by the way, Real Madrid also had many injuries for that match.

In the Champions League they are exactly where we are: eliminated; but by a team whose valuation is about 10 times higher.

YlonenXabi wrote:That was one game. Even Celta won in Camp Nou. It can happen 1 out of 10 times. Even we could have won in Camp Nou if Lewandowski had scored his great chance and now everybody would be just :-$

Or we could have lost 6:0 if Neuer wouldn't have saved their chances, a miss is not a goal. A saved shot is not a goal. What are we discussing?
YlonenXabi wrote: In fact we also won against Barcelona the second leg and played much better

We didn't come even close: we needed 6 goals and we scored 3.

YlonenXabi wrote: But the fact is that Barcelona squad for this match was much better than ours and they were better prepared. Pep had to figure new tactics because of missing half of the squad.


Better prepared?: I can't answer that unless that I think about the coaching staff.
Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Abc456 » Mon May 18, 2015 2:09 pm

Jorge wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:Can you tell me where is Schalke now because of the injuries? :lol: And by the way, Real Madrid also had many injuries for that match.

In the Champions League they are exactly where we are: eliminated; but by a team whose valuation is about 10 times higher.

YlonenXabi wrote:That was one game. Even Celta won in Camp Nou. It can happen 1 out of 10 times. Even we could have won in Camp Nou if Lewandowski had scored his great chance and now everybody would be just :-$

Or we could have lost 6:0 if Neuer wouldn't have saved their chances, a miss is not a goal. A saved shot is not a goal. What are we discussing?
YlonenXabi wrote: In fact we also won against Barcelona the second leg and played much better

We didn't come even close: we needed 6 goals and we scored 3.

YlonenXabi wrote: But the fact is that Barcelona squad for this match was much better than ours and they were better prepared. Pep had to figure new tactics because of missing half of the squad.


Better prepared?: I can't answer that unless that I think about the coaching staff.
Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.

I completely agree with you and by no means we had an inferior squad than Barcelona if we would have played a smart defensive game we could have won.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby pyrasur » Mon May 18, 2015 2:14 pm

Jorge wrote:Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.


Yup. The guy with poor grammar is ripping on someone else for poor maths. And it's not even like those are three of probably our best players. I've seen this debate to it's end. :coffee:
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Mon May 18, 2015 2:23 pm

pyrasur wrote:
Jorge wrote:I look back only a year and I remember Spain, the reigning champions sent back home from Brazil with all their tiki-taka maestros and Germany going all the way playing a more pragmatic style. My big question is not even the first year or the 2nd year, that's just history, not out best history. My big questions is next year, even more the next 3-4 years.


You can't even compare the 2014 Spain team with the Spanish teams that won 2008 Euro, 2010 World Cup, and the 2012 Euros. Sure the system is the same, but the personnel were totally different. At the 2014 World Cup, Xavi was 34, Iniesta 30, Xabi Alonso 32, Casillas also 32. If it was simply a matter of style, explain how Germany failed against Spain in 2010, and failed against Italy in 2012? It takes a good system combined with players peaking at the right time.


So Iniesta is old when he played for Spain a year ago but he isn't now playing for Barcelona? the majority defending Guardiola claimed that if Robben and Ribery would have been fit we would have won: how old are Robben and Ribery? Didn't Robben himself destroyed Spain in that same world cup?
Spain 2008 was not pure tiki-taka although it some of it. By 2009 the tiki-taka started to show more and Spain got spanked by the USA in the Conf Cup. In 2010 tiki-taka was at its peak and Spain suffered almost in every match and even lost to Switzerland in the opener, they won most of the games by one goal and coming late in the matches.
In 2010 Germany lost against Spain 1:0 from an individual set piece header, it could have gone either way; although Spain in paper after the Muller suspension was the better side. Germany in 2012 got the tactics all wrong; you can go to that thread and read what I wrote.
It is matter of personal opinion: I consider the tiki-taka or possession driven style boring and ineffective. I prefer a more vertical style until the scoreline is clearly favorable then some possession spells to run the clock and pull the other team away from their half to open spaces so you can hit them with counterattacks to put the game away. The tiki-taka is not even played by Barcelona anymore which proves that there was a time and specific conditions, many coaches learned how to deal with it.
I do not see Pep taken Bayern to the heights that many expect unless that he adapts and becomes more flexible, so far he is putting all the effort on the opposite; on molding the players and club to his philosophy and personally I think it is not working but I see there is a different perception by most of the fans.
We should stop the debate here and talk in a year.
Last edited by Jorge on Mon May 18, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Mon May 18, 2015 2:29 pm

pyrasur wrote:
Jorge wrote:Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.


Yup. The guy with poor grammar is ripping on someone else for poor maths. And it's not even like those are three of probably our best players. I've seen this debate to it's end. :coffee:


Well, I typed "is" where "if" goes, but: And it's not even like those are three of probably our best players. I've seen this debate to it's end.

You got some impressive grammar going on here kid! BTW: English is my 3rd language.
Last edited by Jorge on Mon May 18, 2015 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Abc456 » Mon May 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Jorge wrote:
pyrasur wrote:
Jorge wrote:I look back only a year and I remember Spain, the reigning champions sent back home from Brazil with all their tiki-taka maestros and Germany going all the way playing a more pragmatic style. My big question is not even the first year or the 2nd year, that's just history, not out best history. My big questions is next year, even more the next 3-4 years.


You can't even compare the 2014 Spain team with the Spanish teams that won 2008 Euro, 2010 World Cup, and the 2012 Euros. Sure the system is the same, but the personnel were totally different. At the 2014 World Cup, Xavi was 34, Iniesta 30, Xabi Alonso 32, Casillas also 32. If it was simply a matter of style, explain how Germany failed against Spain in 2010, and failed against Italy in 2012? It takes a good system combined with players peaking at the right time.


So Iniesta is old when he played for Spain a year ago but he is now playing for Barcelona? the majority defending Guardiola claimed that if Robben and Ribery would have been fit we would have won: how old are Robben and Ribery? Didn't Robben himself destroyed Spain in that same world cup?
Spain 2008 was not pure tiki-taka although it some of it. By 2009 the tiki-taka started to show more and Spain got spanked by the USA in the Conf Cup. In 2010 tiki-taka was at its peak and Spain suffered almost in every match and even lost to Switzerland in the opener, they won most of the games by one goal and coming late in the games.
In 2010 Germany lost against Spain 1:0 from an individual set piece header, it could have gone either way; although Spain in paper after the Muller suspension was the better side. Germany in 2012 got the tactics all wrong; you can go to that thread and read what I wrote.
It is matter of personal opinion: I consider the tiki-taka or possession driven style boring and ineffective. I prefer a more vertical style until the scoreline is clearly favorable then some possession spells to run the clock and pull the other team away from their half to open spaces so you can hit them with counterattacks to put the team away. The tiki-taka is not even played by Barcelona anymore which proves that there was a time and specific conditions, many coaches learned how to deal with it.
I do not see Pep taken Bayern to the heights that many expect unless that he adapt and becomes more flexible, so far he is putting all the effort on the opposite; on molding the players and club to his philosophy and personally I think it is not working but I see there is a different perception by most of the fans.
We should stop the debate here and talk in a year.

Well Guardiola will leave after next year probably to Man City and then we will have to rebuild again something which I think we should be doing at the moment. There are not many players in the world who will suit to Guardiola's style of play we will need to buy many Spanish players and still the team will be poor defensively.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Korab » Mon May 18, 2015 3:31 pm

In my opinion there are only 2 options for Guardiola at Bayern:
1. He stays for 4 years, btw next season will be worse than this year, so many key players are getting old and have to be replaced. He builds his team and shows everybody how good he is.
2. Goes now and let the next guy build new team.
Option of staying only for 1 year is just plain stupid.
Of course my preferred option is #2 for many reasons.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby pyrasur » Tue May 19, 2015 1:02 am

Jorge wrote:
pyrasur wrote:
Jorge wrote:Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.


Yup. The guy with poor grammar is ripping on someone else for poor maths. And it's not even like those are three of probably our best players. I've seen this debate to it's end. :coffee:


Well, I typed "is" where "if" goes, but: And it's not even like those are three of probably our best players. I've seen this debate to it's end.

You got some impressive grammar going on here kid! BTW: English is my 3rd language.


You're forgiven then kiddo ;)
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby dambun » Tue May 19, 2015 5:42 am

Jorge wrote:for sure he did not have the best plan: he lost.

Here is the flaw in your logic, Jorge... It's a game! Not always does the best plan lead to a win! It's a two-sided match, with many unpredictable factors, and many little things can change the outcome of the match...

Losing does not necessarily mean having a bad plan, nor does winning necessarily imply planning well!
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby dambun » Tue May 19, 2015 6:17 am

Jorge wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:That was one game. Even Celta won in Camp Nou. It can happen 1 out of 10 times. Even we could have won in Camp Nou if Lewandowski had scored his great chance and now everybody would be just :-$
Or we could have lost 6:0 if Neuer wouldn't have saved their chances, a miss is not a goal. A saved shot is not a goal. What are we discussing?

How does your math work?... you only count their chances? not ours? how would the result have looked like if we scored all our goal chances in the second half?

It's not really important, I agree... "If"s do not matter... only the actual goals matter...
I agree with Xabi... It's ridiculous comparing our duel with Barca to another match in some other point in time! Talk about tactics and strategies all you want... these comparisons are just meaningless and absurd!

Jorge wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote: In fact we also won against Barcelona the second leg and played much better
We didn't come even close: we needed 6 goals and we scored 3.

We played a good match though... we showed it would have been possible, if we had our injured players and also our other players on form...
No one claims we could have eliminated Barca in the return leg with all those injured/out-of-form players... even if the goal chances suggest otherwise....

Jorge wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote: But the fact is that Barcelona squad for this match was much better than ours and they were better prepared. Pep had to figure new tactics because of missing half of the squad.

Better prepared?: I can't answer that unless that I think about the coaching staff.
Half of the squad? for starters: Ribery, Robben and Alaba, is that is half then we Bayern Munich has a roster of 6.

Ribery, Robben and Alaba are our key-players... Moreover, we had Lahm, Thiago and Schweini back from long/severe injuries and they were far from 100% fitness! Benatia was also injured all season and clearly not at his best! Our brilliant Javi Martinez is just back from a 9-month ACL injury... Holger Badstuber is out again... We also had our top striker Lewandowski playing in a mask!
So in my books, we had 10 players injured/in poor fitness/health...

And that's if we do not count minor injuries like those of Rafinha and Bernat's or reserve players like Rode and Pizza who were out injured/out of form with several minor injuries.... Neuer who had ankle problems over the last month...

Add to that the fact that the remaining players were running out of gas... they were all exhausted, because they could not rest and should have played all the time!

Is it not just too presumptuous if we expect this team to go and beat Barca at their best?... Are you serious...? And if we don't win, you say it's because of bad plans/tactical approach???!! Are you serious?
I would not object if you say our squad-planning was not good, or if you say we have to re-consider our fitness training methods... but blaming it all on tactics just makes no sense to me... In my opinion, tactics were the only superior area of ours in those encounters...
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby dambun » Tue May 19, 2015 6:25 am

I invite everyone to stop measuring Pep with the general conception of tiki-taka... Yeah... Pep's Bayern, at their best, play a totally different game that his Barca... Watch this year's match vs. Roma as an example... There are many other examples...
We use tiki-taka only against inferior teams in the league who park the bus... In those games, we take a cautious approach, and try to limit the opponent's time on the ball, which is basically a successful approach, because we do win most of our league matches...
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Abc456 » Tue May 19, 2015 6:54 am

In modern football you need to play fast to score goals you cannot score a goal by passing the ball slowly around the box giving the opposition time to re-position themselves . We have already tried this tactic quite a few times now and except in the two games against Roma it did not work effectively in any other game against a top side.
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