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[2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue May 03, 2016 7:45 pm

Bayern will go through to the final after 90 minutes
28
55%
Bayern will go through to the final after extra time
8
16%
Bayern will go through to the final on penalties
2
4%
Atlético will go through to the final on penalties
0
No votes
Atlético will go through to the final after extra time
0
No votes
Atlético will go through to the final after 90 minutes
13
25%
 
Total votes : 51

Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu May 05, 2016 7:50 pm

#12 wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:I would prefer to strictly keep it UCL so Jupp has two finals and one win and in my opinion his sample size is still two small to judge if you want to compare his tenure at Bayern to Pep. There is no guarantee Jupp's Bayern win the UCL anymore than Pep's in my opinion. Both had great squads to compete and did so to the best of their capabilities. Also Juve have lost the most UCL finals than any other club.


I don't get that... How is two seasons so incomparable to three? o.O

And I didn't talk about anything else but the UCL, did I?

Of course there's no guarantee... There never is... Would've expected the same of Jupp though... And he's not called best coach in the world... Will expect the same of Carlo as well... He's not called the best either... BAyern should able to make a final (and win it :P ) in three years with this squad...

And I think we're on par with Juve on lost finals...


Oh your right! I must have misread your post but I'm pretty sure Juve have lost six finals and Bayern five.
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby #12 » Thu May 05, 2016 7:53 pm

Wikipedia says you're right

I actually forgot last year I think :mrgreen: #-o
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu May 05, 2016 8:00 pm

dstroe wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:If Jupp stayed a couple more seasons his name would be tarnished in this forum, Pep in my opinion was just an unlucky fall guy....


I agree. Many of the players that are still in our squad were in their absolute peak in 2012-2013. As much as I wanted to deny it for a long time, Basti who was so important to our midfield for many years began declining very quickly due to injuries when Pep took over. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over. The player who dropped off very quickly due to both tactics and general decline in level of play is Dante who was a rock for us in the treble winning seasons. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over.Its one of the reason its almost impossible to repeat in the CL. Its hard to have the same level of motivation two years in a row especially after winning pretty much every trophy there is to win. And the team that wins the CL has a lot more games to play due to super club, club world cup e.t.c. It adds up and the fatigue at the end of the season really shows. The tactics that we employed against Real Madrid were a big factor but we were certainly missing the killer edge. Last year no manager in the world could have been Barcelona who were playing out of this world and we had injuries to our most important players. There was just no way. This year we were just unlucky and most of our forwards just lost form at the worst possible time. I believe we would have gone through if we had Boateng back just one week earlier so that he could have played the first leg. IMO theres no way we concede that goal if Alaba is at lb and Boateng is at CB on that side. No way. I think to a very large degree we've been spoiled by our own success. To go to the CL final 3 times in four years is a remarkable achievement and its unfair our team to do that for an entire decade. We've been to the CL semis just as many times in 8 years as Man Utd has been in 35 years. People are welcome to think what they want of Pep but I think he has done a very good job of reshaping the squad from when Jupp turned it over to him. I think it was PunkCapitalist who said that he has taken Alaba and Boateng to another level and I completely agree. They were already great players under Jupp but my goodness they are the most complete players at their positions and it isn't even close imo. Pep has attracted players that we might not have otherwise gotten and as a result our squad is absolutely loaded. He has gotten an unfair amount of criticism simply for not making the CL final or winning it in his three years with us. If Ancelotti wins the CL in his first season here, Pep's work will have a lot to do with it. The biggest difference I have seen in the squad between the first year and this year is our transition game. When we are playing well we are much better at winning the ball back with pressing and when we get countered we have a lot more people dropping back quickly to deal with it. Players are seldom left completely isolated when defending counter attacks. Ancelotti will improve certain aspects of our game even further while I think even more work will be done to rebuild our squad and set it up for the future. One position I am really concerned about is rightback, it is going to be very difficult to get someone who can replicate the level of play lahm has given us in the last decade. Obviously this is purely conjecture but I am fairly certain we would not have won the CL in these three years with any other manager. If we played the same system some team would have figured out how to beat us and like I said our players didn't have the same motivation and some of our most important players had already begun declining heavily by Pep's second season. I think we will sign a few more players this summer and incorporate some of Ancelotti's ideas and we will win the CL next year. After the way we went out this year the players seemed much more devestated than other years because of how close we were. I think that will serve us extra motivation and we will play like a pack of rabid wolves next year similar to how we played in 2012-2013 and we will annihilate every team that stand in the path. We will be confident, motivated and we will play with passion and fire!

I agree almost completely. The one thing I disagree with is: we didn't need Boa to win or tie the first leg against Atlético. We needed Müller and attacking tactics. We needed to play the way we played at the Allianz. And that's my quibble with Pep. Every time we played away, he employed draw tactics (hold midfield and be very cautious instead of going for the win). Every time it hurt us. I will miss the dominance and the brilliant tactics, but I'm relieved that we are getting a more pragmatic coach, who is better at motivation and who (hopefully) can actually learn from his mistakes.

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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby dstroe » Thu May 05, 2016 8:09 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
dstroe wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:If Jupp stayed a couple more seasons his name would be tarnished in this forum, Pep in my opinion was just an unlucky fall guy....


I agree. Many of the players that are still in our squad were in their absolute peak in 2012-2013. As much as I wanted to deny it for a long time, Basti who was so important to our midfield for many years began declining very quickly due to injuries when Pep took over. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over. The player who dropped off very quickly due to both tactics and general decline in level of play is Dante who was a rock for us in the treble winning seasons. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over.Its one of the reason its almost impossible to repeat in the CL. Its hard to have the same level of motivation two years in a row especially after winning pretty much every trophy there is to win. And the team that wins the CL has a lot more games to play due to super club, club world cup e.t.c. It adds up and the fatigue at the end of the season really shows. The tactics that we employed against Real Madrid were a big factor but we were certainly missing the killer edge. Last year no manager in the world could have been Barcelona who were playing out of this world and we had injuries to our most important players. There was just no way. This year we were just unlucky and most of our forwards just lost form at the worst possible time. I believe we would have gone through if we had Boateng back just one week earlier so that he could have played the first leg. IMO theres no way we concede that goal if Alaba is at lb and Boateng is at CB on that side. No way. I think to a very large degree we've been spoiled by our own success. To go to the CL final 3 times in four years is a remarkable achievement and its unfair our team to do that for an entire decade. We've been to the CL semis just as many times in 8 years as Man Utd has been in 35 years. People are welcome to think what they want of Pep but I think he has done a very good job of reshaping the squad from when Jupp turned it over to him. I think it was PunkCapitalist who said that he has taken Alaba and Boateng to another level and I completely agree. They were already great players under Jupp but my goodness they are the most complete players at their positions and it isn't even close imo. Pep has attracted players that we might not have otherwise gotten and as a result our squad is absolutely loaded. He has gotten an unfair amount of criticism simply for not making the CL final or winning it in his three years with us. If Ancelotti wins the CL in his first season here, Pep's work will have a lot to do with it. The biggest difference I have seen in the squad between the first year and this year is our transition game. When we are playing well we are much better at winning the ball back with pressing and when we get countered we have a lot more people dropping back quickly to deal with it. Players are seldom left completely isolated when defending counter attacks. Ancelotti will improve certain aspects of our game even further while I think even more work will be done to rebuild our squad and set it up for the future. One position I am really concerned about is rightback, it is going to be very difficult to get someone who can replicate the level of play lahm has given us in the last decade. Obviously this is purely conjecture but I am fairly certain we would not have won the CL in these three years with any other manager. If we played the same system some team would have figured out how to beat us and like I said our players didn't have the same motivation and some of our most important players had already begun declining heavily by Pep's second season. I think we will sign a few more players this summer and incorporate some of Ancelotti's ideas and we will win the CL next year. After the way we went out this year the players seemed much more devestated than other years because of how close we were. I think that will serve us extra motivation and we will play like a pack of rabid wolves next year similar to how we played in 2012-2013 and we will annihilate every team that stand in the path. We will be confident, motivated and we will play with passion and fire!

I agree almost completely. The one thing I disagree with is: we didn't need Boa to win or tie the first leg against Atlético. We needed Müller and attacking tactics. We needed to play the way we played at the Allianz. And that's my quibble with Pep. Every time we played away, he employed draw tactics (hold midfield and be very cautious instead of going for the win). Every time it hurt us. I will miss the dominance and the brilliant tactics, but I'm relieved that we are getting a more pragmatic coach, who is better at motivation and who (hopefully) can actually learn from his mistakes.

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Ah yes I forgot to mention Muller as well which was obviously a huge tactical mistake on Pep's part in the first leg. I would have liked to have played Muller in place of Thiago so that Lewa could have drawn defenders allowing Muller to make runs into the box. I am absolutely not disagreeing with this and I think we could have easily been talking about a 1-1 draw if Muller had been playing. The reason I mention Boateng as a big difference maker is because I think he is a huge remedy to teams that press us very hard in the beginning of games because of his ability to play long balls over the press and open the game up. The second reason is that Alaba wouldn't have been forced to play cb where he is wasted and is not nearly as good as he is at lb. And thirdly starting Boateng in that game means Bernat is not on the pitch and in many big games I feel like playing with Bernat is like playing with ten men. Not amazing at defending, not amazing going forward, loses the ball trying to dribble people and doesn't have a great understanding of playing with our wingers and overlapping which Alaba is exceptional at. I think if we played with the same lineup as we did in Munich we not only could have drawn away but actually won. That is probably Pep's biggest fault as a manager imo. He doesn't play away game to win but rather plays away games not to lose which always seems to bite us in the ass.
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby #12 » Thu May 05, 2016 8:12 pm

Especially since goals conceded hurt more at home than away... If he wants to do that defense shit he should've done it the other way around...
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu May 05, 2016 8:16 pm

dstroe wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
dstroe wrote:[quote="Firefox1234"]If Jupp stayed a couple more seasons his name would be tarnished in this forum, Pep in my opinion was just an unlucky fall guy....


I agree. Many of the players that are still in our squad were in their absolute peak in 2012-2013. As much as I wanted to deny it for a long time, Basti who was so important to our midfield for many years began declining very quickly due to injuries when Pep took over. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over. The player who dropped off very quickly due to both tactics and general decline in level of play is Dante who was a rock for us in the treble winning seasons. Ribery and Robben started sustaining more and more injuries and our players just didn't have the same level of motivation the first year Pep took over.Its one of the reason its almost impossible to repeat in the CL. Its hard to have the same level of motivation two years in a row especially after winning pretty much every trophy there is to win. And the team that wins the CL has a lot more games to play due to super club, club world cup e.t.c. It adds up and the fatigue at the end of the season really shows. The tactics that we employed against Real Madrid were a big factor but we were certainly missing the killer edge. Last year no manager in the world could have been Barcelona who were playing out of this world and we had injuries to our most important players. There was just no way. This year we were just unlucky and most of our forwards just lost form at the worst possible time. I believe we would have gone through if we had Boateng back just one week earlier so that he could have played the first leg. IMO theres no way we concede that goal if Alaba is at lb and Boateng is at CB on that side. No way. I think to a very large degree we've been spoiled by our own success. To go to the CL final 3 times in four years is a remarkable achievement and its unfair our team to do that for an entire decade. We've been to the CL semis just as many times in 8 years as Man Utd has been in 35 years. People are welcome to think what they want of Pep but I think he has done a very good job of reshaping the squad from when Jupp turned it over to him. I think it was PunkCapitalist who said that he has taken Alaba and Boateng to another level and I completely agree. They were already great players under Jupp but my goodness they are the most complete players at their positions and it isn't even close imo. Pep has attracted players that we might not have otherwise gotten and as a result our squad is absolutely loaded. He has gotten an unfair amount of criticism simply for not making the CL final or winning it in his three years with us. If Ancelotti wins the CL in his first season here, Pep's work will have a lot to do with it. The biggest difference I have seen in the squad between the first year and this year is our transition game. When we are playing well we are much better at winning the ball back with pressing and when we get countered we have a lot more people dropping back quickly to deal with it. Players are seldom left completely isolated when defending counter attacks. Ancelotti will improve certain aspects of our game even further while I think even more work will be done to rebuild our squad and set it up for the future. One position I am really concerned about is rightback, it is going to be very difficult to get someone who can replicate the level of play lahm has given us in the last decade. Obviously this is purely conjecture but I am fairly certain we would not have won the CL in these three years with any other manager. If we played the same system some team would have figured out how to beat us and like I said our players didn't have the same motivation and some of our most important players had already begun declining heavily by Pep's second season. I think we will sign a few more players this summer and incorporate some of Ancelotti's ideas and we will win the CL next year. After the way we went out this year the players seemed much more devestated than other years because of how close we were. I think that will serve us extra motivation and we will play like a pack of rabid wolves next year similar to how we played in 2012-2013 and we will annihilate every team that stand in the path. We will be confident, motivated and we will play with passion and fire!

I agree almost completely. The one thing I disagree with is: we didn't need Boa to win or tie the first leg against Atlético. We needed Müller and attacking tactics. We needed to play the way we played at the Allianz. And that's my quibble with Pep. Every time we played away, he employed draw tactics (hold midfield and be very cautious instead of going for the win). Every time it hurt us. I will miss the dominance and the brilliant tactics, but I'm relieved that we are getting a more pragmatic coach, who is better at motivation and who (hopefully) can actually learn from his mistakes.

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Ah yes I forgot to mention Muller as well which was obviously a huge tactical mistake on Pep's part in the first leg. I would have liked to have played Muller in place of Thiago so that Lewa could have drawn defenders allowing Muller to make runs into the box. I am absolutely not disagreeing with this and I think we could have easily been talking about a 1-1 draw if Muller had been playing. The reason I mention Boateng as a big difference maker is because I think he is a huge remedy to teams that press us very hard in the beginning of games because of his ability to play long balls over the press and open the game up. The second reason is that Alaba wouldn't have been forced to play cb where he is wasted and is not nearly as good as he is at lb. And thirdly starting Boateng in that game means Bernat is not on the pitch and in many big games I feel like playing with Bernat is like playing with ten men. Not amazing at defending, not amazing going forward, loses the ball trying to dribble people and doesn't have a great understanding of playing with our wingers and overlapping which Alaba is exceptional at. I think if we played with the same lineup as we did in Munich we not only could have drawn away but actually won. That is probably Pep's biggest fault as a manager imo. He doesn't play away game to win but rather plays away games not to lose which always seems to bite us in the ass.[/quote]
Not saying Boa wouldn't have helped ;) but he wasn't available. I blame Pep for 1) no Müller 2) Bernat instead of Benatia or Kimmich or even Tasci 4) starting Coman who is too green for that stage and 3) subs which were awful. Talking about Boa's absence is just beyond the point.

Pep just got us in harder situations than we needed to be in, always *having* to turn ties around in second legs against teams we should had dominated even away. But well... All of that will soon be in the past.

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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu May 05, 2016 8:29 pm

JANCKER wrote:Don't use Jupp's name in vain... we don't know what would've happened if he stayed...

He played in 3 CLs, won 2 and reached the final in the other. I think saying his reputation would have been tarnished is a bit unfair. However, I don't believe we'd have won the CL again.
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby quaazi » Thu May 05, 2016 8:46 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:If Jupp stayed a couple more seasons his name would be tarnished in this forum

Heh, until Robben pulled off that performance, the forum was calling for Jupp's head, culminating in very nasty things being said after the 5-2...
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby quaazi » Thu May 05, 2016 8:47 pm

Jorge wrote:2 years and 6 days ago our Bayern team (which contained a solid core of players than only 3 months later were going to win the World Cup and than less than a year before had owned Germany and Europe) managed by Guardiola

That's debatable. ;) :lol:
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby quaazi » Thu May 05, 2016 8:49 pm

CaptainLahm21 wrote:I agree the blame cant purely go down to pep but i have no idea why they have been so poor games away in europe.

Well, I'm not really saying that Pep isn't entirely to blame either. I'm saying it's very difficult to pinpoint, and some of the knuckleheads here are the least qualified people to do it. It's not impossible that Pep is directly to blame for our away form, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument in favour of the hypothesis.
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby CaptainLahm21 » Fri May 06, 2016 12:42 am

Maybe this is just me but i love the 4-2-3-1 with a solid double pivot this year if everyone stayed fit with javi and vidal as that occasionally vidal bombing forward i think we would have beat everyone, enough control against most teams and then w4 play barca we can sit back and destroy them on the counter the double pivot for me only has the weakness of sitting back too much but the way we play it only has to be defensive against on or two teams in european football. I wonder how heynckes would have progressed but that double pivot had the potential to be as well adored as a tiki taka style of play.
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby zamir92 » Fri May 06, 2016 12:44 am

Mourinho got knocked out from the semi final of CL in 2011, 2012 and 2013 .. Ancelotti replaced him at Real Madrid and won the CL...

Pep got knocked out from the semi final of CL in 2014, 2015 and 2016 .. Ancelotti will replace him at Bayern. ........
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby RAJBAYERN » Fri May 06, 2016 1:01 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
JANCKER wrote:Don't use Jupp's name in vain... we don't know what would've happened if he stayed...

He played in 3 CLs, won 2 and reached the final in the other. I think saying his reputation would have been tarnished is a bit unfair. However, I don't believe we'd have won the CL again.


But he would use better tactics for the semifinals against Real Madrid...
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby RAJBAYERN » Fri May 06, 2016 1:04 am

quaazi wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:If Jupp stayed a couple more seasons his name would be tarnished in this forum

Heh, until Robben pulled off that performance, the forum was calling for Jupp's head, culminating in very nasty things being said after the 5-2...


And many fans wanted Pep because despite the treble, Jupp was old... So see now how our young coach will leave in just 3 seasons..
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Re: [2016-05-03] Bayern Munich vs Atlético

Postby RAJBAYERN » Fri May 06, 2016 1:16 am

I agree to critic Pep because his coaching job in general, in those 3 seasons were below the expectations. But this match, I think the players have more fault than the coach, Lewandowski and Müller as our forward were more shit than Pep coaching.
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