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[2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:45 pm

Atlético Madrid will win
4
25%
It will end in a draw
2
13%
Bayern Munich will win
10
63%
 
Total votes : 16

Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCB general » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:07 am

rthebest wrote:not always on the same page with you but you nailed it ( i'm still a Pep fan because I believe despite some of his mistakes he did a great job with the team ). Didn't you enjoy watching BVB against Real yesterday?

Yes, I did. Dortmund once again ended short-handed vs Real. Seems to me they're back in the early 2000's when they were causing troubles to Del Bosque, but in the end Real comes out as the one who won the war. :)

The whole thing is that SImeone's Atletico cannot be underestimated and the last 4 years showed exactly what kind of a team is that, what are their strengths and what can they do. El Cholo discovered so many players, made them top players(Juanfran, Koke, Gabi, Filipe Luis, Griezmann, Carrasco, Saúl, etc.) where some of them were average for years until he showed up and moved them 2 levels up.
There are no coaches(maybe Klopp who did an awesome job in Germany) who can do this today and who have done something similar over the last 10 years(Alex Ferguson at Man United was a football's trademark for many years to make a fantastic player from a half-garbage talent :D ) and that makes him a great coach and Atletico a great club.


The only difference between Guardiola and Ancelotti against Atletico that I saw last night was a decision to dare to attack and risk against Simeone's team at the same time knowing how they're going to counter us big time what exactly happened, but nothing terrible happened since we conceded JUST ONE goal. Guardiola's possession game and approach to control and patiently waiting for a chance, a mistake or an open space in Madrid didn't happen except in 1-2 situations that we missed and that's it.
Still, that's a big difference and Guardiola's Bayern took the risk in the 2nd leg of the last season instead of playing maaaaany, maaaany games like that in all competitions.

Apart from that, the biggest problem is that we don't have a stronger, muscle midfield to compete against a team such as Atletico Madrid. If you compare a crew such as Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Gustavo and Tymoshchuk to Alonso, Thiago, Vidal and Kimmich, you can see far more softness in the actual crew where the only butcher can be, ie. it is Vidal while Alonso left that element in Liverpool some 7-8 years ago. :) Guardiola's legacy isn't a German mentality and I hope we are about to strive for it.

Personally, I think Ancelotti isn't that guy who can give us what we had before or what we strive now. But it's the board's call to hire the Italian.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby fashiondesign_guru » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:30 am

MUTU wrote:
fashiondesign_guru wrote:
MUTU wrote:I woke up this morning and I think I read the word Pep more than Carlo. Stop the comparison! If anything, Pep suffered a bigger embarrassment last night IMO.


He didn't suffer any embarressment, he has a new team who aren't considered 'great' in European arena. He's said it over and over again that their job is to build that team to slowly become a consistent top 4 side eventually. What's important is the football played on the pitch. They may not be one of the best teams in Europe yet but I believe he will help them win a European trophy eventually by building a foundation for it for future, they're trying to build a young team playing good football.

In my opinion he did. His former club Barcelona beat Celtic 7-0, and Man City needed to come back not once, not twice but three times in order to obtain a point. I saw some five minutes of the match and it was all Celtic... they could easily have scored 2 or 3 goals in those 5 minutes.



Embarrassment is a strong word and even their fans or English press don't think that. First, they're not considered and they don't consider themselves as one of the European greats, they're a title contender in Premier League. You can tell they're a work in progress, they don't claim anything different, he didn't say things like "I came here to win the CL", he in fact rejected the idea. Second, Barcelona beating Celtic 7-0 in Spain isn't something to measure Manchester City. Barcelona could easily rout Bayern yesterday, they're on a different planet.

My yardstick is football played on the pitch, progress of players and progress of the whole team. From that POV, Bayern have been regressing, the regression is visible in terms of football played on the pitch. It could be fixed, but there's no point in denying what's out there, this Bayern team isn't playing good. Bayern are lucky not to have faced Barcelona or Real Madrid yesterday, they would not have been as wasteful as Torres and Griezmann.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby tflags » Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:54 am

fashiondesign_guru wrote:Yesterday Bayern weren't only beaten but were soundly outplayed in every imaginable way and stat possible. Atletico players looked individually better than Bayern players, in tight spaces, they could've won the game 3-0 easily. I think they'll walk away with at least 1 point at the AA too. Ancelotti is a downgrade from Guardiola, this isn't just a deduction from the game last night. Jupp and Pep just played better football, were more satisfying to watch, whether they won or lost.


"It was one of the BEST games since I'm here." Diego Simeone last night.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby Machiavellico » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:13 pm

rthebest wrote:
I disagree

we were outplayed by
- BVB in the supercup
- outplayed by Schalke
- by ingolstadt
- by Hamburger SV
- and definitely today


Get real. You're making too much of a fuss. Bayern was outplayed only last night and in the supercup. Schalke never controlled the match. With Ingolstadt there weren't too many chances, but they didn't do anything either. And don't forget, there were 3 goddamn goals. You don't score 3 goals by doing squat. And outplayed by Hamburg?????????????????? Are you on crack?
Last edited by Machiavellico on Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby fashiondesign_guru » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:14 pm

tflags wrote:
fashiondesign_guru wrote:Yesterday Bayern weren't only beaten but were soundly outplayed in every imaginable way and stat possible. Atletico players looked individually better than Bayern players, in tight spaces, they could've won the game 3-0 easily. I think they'll walk away with at least 1 point at the AA too. Ancelotti is a downgrade from Guardiola, this isn't just a deduction from the game last night. Jupp and Pep just played better football, were more satisfying to watch, whether they won or lost.


"It was one of the BEST games since I'm here." Diego Simeone last night.


And? Good for him. That means he's happy with his football, because they were more dominant on the ball and in terms of chances created than Bayern yesterday, and that says a lot for a team known to be playing more defensive football against a team that used to be so dominant. For example, look what he said after the second leg SF game in April:

"We played against the best opponents that I've played in my whole career today, especially in the first half. "

http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2016/matches/round=2000637/match=2015787/postmatch/quotes/

And this coming from a coach who played against Real Madrid and Barcelona frequently in Spain and in the CL says a lot. What coaches say don't matter though, they say things in the heat of the moment. We're playing boring and worse than we used to. The results notwithstanding. Italy made it to the final in Euro 2000 but they were boring as hell and were duly punished by the better team (France) in the final, in the only game they played better than the opponent, ironically.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby Achilles » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:35 pm

rthebest wrote:not always on the same page with you but you nailed it ( i'm still a Pep fan because I believe despite some of his mistakes he did a great job with the team ). Didn't you enjoy watching BVB against Real yesterday?

If Bayern played with that kind of defensive tactics like BVB but Real missed all those plus that horrible ghost-Benzema here at this forum we would have a coup, literally and justified. BVB's spaces at defense can make an amateur land a Boeing 777 like a pro THAT'S how much pathetic was their defensive line, they were great offensive though but that's not how you win titles nor called balance.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby pyrasur » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:06 pm

They generally do a decent job either replacing (Auba) or straight up fleecing us (Mario), but it's hard to call them out on their defense when the 777 runway looks Hummels shaped.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby weisertheking » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:11 pm

fashiondesign_guru ,

We lost Arsenal 0-2 when playing Muller as winger and a similar line-up like today. Your comparison that Pep is better than Carlo is non-sense
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby JANCKER » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:21 pm

Good that some started looking exclusively through their critic glasses. :P
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:22 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:I disagree. Lahm has been poor since Carlo arrived. He hangs on too much at the center of the field instead of going to the right-corner zone.

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Only based on the part you see him "hanging too much on the center of the field" makes me believes that his poor form started before Carlos arrived.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:33 pm

Jorge wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:I disagree. Lahm has been poor since Carlo arrived. He hangs on too much at the center of the field instead of going to the right-corner zone.

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Only based on the part you see him "hanging too much on the center of the field" makes me believes that his poor form started before Carlos arrived.

Well... Under Pep he had Costa or Coman to provide width. So that kinda masked him going missing on the offensive right side. Besides, under Pep he had midfield responsibilities even when playing FB (inverted fullbacks).

Under Carlo, and especially in a 433, the FBs HAVE to occupy the advanced attacking wide space, otherwise no one does. There is no time for Lahm to hang around the center of midfield doing neat passes; he has to go up and down, but as I have said previously, I'm not sure he has the stamina any more.

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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:44 pm

My two cents: Atletico was the better team by far: very organized and as always making a large limonade if you just give them one lemon.

Carlos's lemon was a limping low energy Alonso on the center of the field, it all came down to that. And I am not only talking about the turnover that led to the goal which looked more like a perfectly timed pass to the opponent in the red zone: Alonso was unable to cover the area in front of the backline and Atletico found a lot of room to run through on the break going 1v1 against our centerbacks which ultimately reduced the ability of Lahm and Alaba joining the attacking zone as well and forced Vidal and Thiago to chase the opponents from behind.

It is easy to do Monday Morning Quaterbacking but if this game has to be re-thought all over again Alonso needs to go to the bench and place one fo the two pit bulls that we have on the team as a holding mid: Martinez or Vidal. In that case a 4-1-3-2 formation:
Neuer- Alaba,Hummels, Boa, Lahm - Martinez- Ribs, Vidal, Thiago - Muller, Lewa or Neuer- Alaba,Hummels, Boa, Lahm - Vidal- Ribs, Thiago, Kimmich - Muller, Lewa. Robben still a supersub for the last 20-25 min.
With this 4-1-3-2 formation you keep the holding mid deep at all times just in front of the center backs which allows the fullbacks to operate all the way on the break abandoning the unnecessary possession style and you have more options to break Atletico's compact formation on the back. It was hard to watch Bayern with 10 minutes to go and 0:1 down still rotating the ball 40 yards from goal hoping to break an Atletico deep formation that did not show any hole in the 80 minutes prior to that.
At the end of the day, this is a group stage match where the results overall have more weight than the head to head. The game in Munich will be a completely different story and Carlos has all the resources in place to make adjustments. Let's not forget that in the 2013-14 SF he won 1-0 versus Bayern at Real Madrid in the first leg which many thought was a bad result for his team and a good result for Pep, then came to Munich and trashed us. Pep himself had a game screwed coincidentally by Alonso in Portugal and completely turned around the 2nd leg.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby weisertheking » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:03 pm

ottackon wrote:I don't want under any circumstances dig up the hatchet, but I note that last season against Atlético, only individual errors cost us the qualification, not the game system because we were the better team for the 180 minutes, but tonight there was no game plan, all we saw was the famous "U" hoping for a flash of genius.


Actually Atletico dominated us before Saul scored. We appeared to play better when they stopped attacking and defended their lead. When we led 1-0 at the AA, Atletico attacked again and they scored an equalizer, then they tried to defend again so we could make 2-1

We played better than Juve when they tried to defend. When they attacked us , we were down to 0-2 and they defended their leads again so we could come back 2-2

It 's system failure. Any time the other teams tried to attack , they scored . We were only better than them when they gave up
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby JANCKER » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:04 pm

Ancelotti chewed that gum 100 mph last night... maybe he'll make some changes.
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Re: [2016-09-28] Atlético vs Bayern Munich

Postby JANCKER » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:14 pm

weisertheking wrote:
ottackon wrote:I don't want under any circumstances dig up the hatchet, but I note that last season against Atlético, only individual errors cost us the qualification, not the game system because we were the better team for the 180 minutes, but tonight there was no game plan, all we saw was the famous "U" hoping for a flash of genius.


Actually Atletico dominated us before Saul scored. We appeared to play better when they stopped attacking and defended their lead. When we led 1-0 at the AA, Atletico attacked again and they scored an equalizer, then they tried to defend again so we could make 2-1

We played better than Juve when they tried to defend. When they attacked us , we were down to 0-2 and they defended their leads again so we could come back 2-2

It 's system failure. Any time the other teams tried to attack , they scored . We were only better than them when they gave up


100% true.
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