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[2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:45 pm

Arsenal F.C. will win
4
5%
It will end in a draw
9
11%
Bayern Munich will win
68
84%
 
Total votes : 81

Re: Profile: Champions League opponents Arsenal

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:09 pm

Cmon really other than Santi who comes close to matching the class of Schweinstiger, Martinez, Gustavo and Kroos
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Re: Profile: Champions League opponents Arsenal

Postby quaazi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:14 pm

Yoda wrote:He has the highest passing percentages in all of Europe, playing in a DM role.

I actually got into the stats, and there are a couple of important things to be mentioned here:

1) You're technically correct - he's above De Jong by 0,1 percent, and other players who have a higher passing accuracy (Xavi, our very own Holger Badstuber) aren't technically defensive midfielders, although an argument can be made that distribution wise, their role isn't that far off. But it's true, he is a very good water carrier of the Biscuits mold. Yet so much more one-dimensional than his two spanish competitors for the role (Biscuits and Martinez), lacking the defensive tactical acumen of the former (which is the most underrated anything in football today) and the sheer physique of the latter (Martinez is a full 14 cm taller and 11 kg heavier, without any loss of speed).

2) This is why I don't really care for the comparison of passing stats between two leagues - it is a widely known secret by now (I think ZM had an article on it at some point) that the Premier League is woefully behind in the importance of interceptions in defensive play, which should obviously be directly related to the average passing accuracies of the respective leagues. Looking at the stats from whoscored, only 5 players in the Premier League have made 3 interceptions or more per game. That's compared to 10 in La Liga, 13 in Serie A, and, wait for it, 22 in the Bundesliga. I'm not going to say thta it is four times more difficult to complete a pass in the Bundesliga (because that would be retarded), but there is a significant difference between the styles of play in the two countries and Arteta plays, when it comes to the ease of completing a pass, in the easiest league out of the top four.

In fact, I think it's worth pointing out that the Premier League is worse defensively than the other 3 leagues in other aspects as well - despite the English love for crunching tackles, they have only 3 players who make 4 or more tackles per game. Again, compared to 8 in Serie A and 9 in the Bundesliga and La Liga, this shows that the modern English defenses are simply not up to par. Of course, one could deduct that from the grand old spanking Manchester City, defensively the best team in the Premier League, got from Real and Dortmund. Then there's the offsides won statistic - the Premier League has only 7 players who have, playing for their teams, gotten 1 or more offside decisions go their way defensively, or, that is to say, their offside trap works actively at least once per game. Compared to 14 players in Serie A, 16 in the Bundesliga and 17 in La Liga.

The last paragraph is a bit of a digression, but I feel it illustrates well how poor English teams really are defensively these days.
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Re: [2012-12-20] Bayern Munich vs ??? — Champions League dra

Postby quaazi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:24 pm

no no the scoreline is right, but Germany (who you probably support) has the same problem.
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby quaazi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:25 pm

The van Buytenator will do fine. Besides, just think about our aerial power with him, Dante, Martinez and one of Gomez/Pizza/Mandzukic on the pitch!
Maybe we'll even score from a corner! :o :o :o
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:40 pm

quaazi wrote:The van Buytenator will do fine. Besides, just think about our aerial power with him, Dante, Martinez and one of Gomez/Pizza/Mandzukic on the pitch!
Maybe we'll even score from a corner! :o :o :o


Dont jinx it!!! Its gonna be hard enough to score from a set piece as it is :P
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Re: [2012-12-20] Bayern Munich vs ??? — Champions League dra

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:42 pm

Okay thanks! Also i do support Germany but i wasn't thinking of Germany's recent debacle :P
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Re: Profile: Champions League opponents Arsenal

Postby Yoda » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:53 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:Cmon really other than Santi who comes close to matching the class of Schweinstiger, Martinez, Gustavo and Kroos


Okay, firstly, no doubt, that is some lineup of midfielders, but I have right to be optimistic, right? :wink:
I think the individual quality of Arsenal players fades because they get overshadowed by the lacks of trophies for the club. Like people generally see Manu as a mighty team, but they regularly play with an average midfield. So not to get blinded,
Lets see, comparing like for like Position wise,

DM
---------
Arteta : Most important player. But only Manu saw it somehow. They won the game so easily against us because Rooney and RvP took turns to put pressure on Arteta so that he cant pass forwards. If Bayern do the same, we will be half screwed already, but you play a different formation and it is not easy to accomplish. Anyways, good passer, leader again, scores over Bastian in -almost fabregas like- vision. He cant head the ball very well though, and has generally not been too adventurous in attack. Has the best passing stats in Europe. Can pass you to death if given space. Weak physique, would struggle against strong midfielders, like Gustavo.

Martinez : Fantastic attack breaking ability, good tackler, a bit like Xabi Alonso, but lacks his touch of class. Good physique and and athleticism and consistency. I will rate Martinez as the most positionally suited player in the Bayern 11. He cant dribble that well, but that is out of the requirements of his position.

-----------------

CM
---------
Schweinstieger : He is the most important player. The enforcer. If Arsenal want to win the game in midfield, they will have to take Bastian out of it completely. The reason Arsenal won against Barca in 2011 was because they took Xavi off his game. Again, they beat Manu 1-0 was because they took Carrick off the game completely. This is so obvious that it baffles me that more teams dont try and do this. Maybe they see it to be too difficult. But anyways, he is a good passer, strong tackler, and is generally the leader on the pitch, as far as I have seen him. Lacks some vision, and has some reluctance towards making runs into the box though that is covered by either of the wingers for him.

Cazorla : Unlike players, but I cant compare him with Willshere because he is a shuttler in the Arsenal 3. Anyways, Great technical ability, skill, precision, close control, vision and passing range. Lacks build to power through defences, but makes up for it with trickery and genius. Has been in super form and can be the most dangerous player attack wise. I guess he has been too much in press already to be given an explanation for :)

----------------

CM - Shuttler
---------

Kroos : I dont know, solid passer of the ball, fantastic shooting ability from distance and generally consistent form. But I do not see the speciality of the former two in him. He is good. But just good. He does everything good. Nothing great, except perhaps the long rangers, he has a hammer of a foot :)

Willshere : Fantastic passer, good vision. Plus the ability to dribble past the challenge. He almost always avoid the first tackle. Good control. Lacks fitness though and can be temperamental sometimes. Needs experience to gel with the team mates and develop his vision. Altogether, to be honest, at this time, Kroos is better because he is playing at 100%, Wenger plays Willshere for two games and then rests him for one because he his not fully fit yet. Call me biased, but I will take Willshere over Kroos anyday. Not that Kroos is bad, but willshere is just one class above. 8)

I have left out Gustavo because, frankly speaking I havent seen enough to judge him and I dont think you will be playing all four together anyways.

I think your midfield knicks it. But not by much. Plus, a lot can change in two months :D
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby tflags » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:54 pm

I think we are forgetting one very good header from our roster...
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby quaazi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:58 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:Dont jinx it!!! Its gonna be hard enough to score from a set piece as it is :P


Actually, we've scored more goals from set pieces (5) this season than Arsenal (4).
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby quaazi » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:01 pm

tflags wrote:I think we are forgetting one very good header from our roster...


Müller is a great header of the ball, but only from open play, I'd say. Though he is ridiculously overzealous when challenging for headers, every time he goes in I feel like he's going to break all his ribs when landing. Luckily nature has blessed him with a very resilient body. (no more games for a couple of weeks, so I don't care if I jinx it :P)
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Re: Profile: Champions League opponents Arsenal

Postby Yoda » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:19 pm

quaazi wrote:n fact, I think it's worth pointing out that the Premier League is worse defensively than the other 3 leagues in other aspects as well - despite the English love for crunching tackles, they have only 3 players who make 4 or more tackles per game. Again, compared to 8 in Serie A and 9 in the Bundesliga and La Liga, this shows that the modern English defenses are simply not up to par. Of course, one could deduct that from the grand old spanking Manchester City, defensively the best team in the Premier League, got from Real and Dortmund. Then there's the offsides won statistic - the Premier League has only 7 players who have, playing for their teams, gotten 1 or more offside decisions go their way defensively, or, that is to say, their offside trap works actively at least once per game. Compared to 14 players in Serie A, 16 in the Bundesliga and 17 in La Liga.

The last paragraph is a bit of a digression, but I feel it illustrates well how poor English teams really are defensively these days.


I think you can make stats say whatever you want them too :D

I can see the low number of interceptions as a sign that Premier League has better passers than other leagues? But that would be stretching it.

A lot depends on the style in which games are played in a league. Premier league teams rely most on aerial balls into the six yard box to score and actually a lot more football is played on the ground in Bundesliga and La Liga than EPL and games are much tighter. Fewer ambitious through balls are attempted and thus fewer interceptions made.

Tackles are a whole different thing altogether. If you are looking at the Premier league, teams like stoke and west ham play to get tackled and get fouled, so that they can loft one of those balls into the penalty area and score from a header. Teams like to avoid tackling in and around their defnsive third. Thats why Arsenal and Manu are teams with one of the lowest fouls per game ratio, way better than Bayern or Dortmund. Actually, no Bundesliga team is in the top 20 for the least fouls conceded.

At the same time, Arsenal have made 20.6 tackles per game to Bayern's 19.3, which means, Arsenal are conceding lesser fouls doing more tackles, which displays the fact that Arsenal are better in tackling ( or maybe you are going to suggest that EPL doesnt have any players who can avoid a tackle, so EPL is shit attacking wise too? :P ) than both Bayern and Dortmund.

Even in interceptions, Arsenal have made 16.1 interceptions per game to Bayern's 12.4. Thats almost 4 interceptions more per game. So what does that prove?

Statistics are only one way of analysing things. You can make the statistics show whatever you want. :D

Oh and yes, you are right, Man city did get hammered, but that was because Mancini is shite with his tactics. We beat Dortmund last season over two legs without much fuss with a "weak" defence.

I am not bragging, just saying that the playing conditions in EPL are different. Mertesacker came and got injured, Kagawa came and has been out injured for over two months, both players who enjoyed relatively injury free seasons in the Bundesliga.
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Re: Profile: Champions League opponents Arsenal

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:35 pm

Yoda wrote:Okay, firstly, no doubt, that is some lineup of midfielders, but I have right to be optimistic, right? :wink:


As a fan myself i can respect that, i dont expect you to be throwing punches at your favorite team. :D

Yoda wrote:Martinez : Fantastic attack breaking ability, good tackler, a bit like Xabi Alonso, but lacks his touch of class. Good physique and and athleticism and consistency. I will rate Martinez as the most positionally suited player in the Bayern 11. He cant dribble that well, but that is out of the requirements of his position.


You must not watch enough Bayern games and Bilbao games from last year, this guy can dribble very well. There have been numerous times Javi has dribbled by defenders whne making a run at goal. Also dont forget his vision and creativity that was one reason he cost Bayern €40m especially in the Dortmund game when Schweinstiger had a bad game it was Martinez who was the enforcer in the midfield offensively and defensively. There is a reason Javi is on the Spanish NT and not Arteta

Yoda wrote:Cazorla : Unlike players, but I cant compare him with Willshere because he is a shuttler in the Arsenal 3. Anyways, Great technical ability, skill, precision, close control, vision and passing range. Lacks build to power through defences, but makes up for it with trickery and genius. Has been in super form and can be the most dangerous player attack wise. I guess he has been too much in press already to be given an explanation for :)


True he is the main guy Bayern need to stop and im very confident either Gustavo or Martinez can take him out.

Yoda wrote:Kroos : I dont know, solid passer of the ball, fantastic shooting ability from distance and generally consistent form. But I do not see the speciality of the former two in him. He is good. But just good. He does everything good. Nothing great, except perhaps the long rangers, he has a hammer of a foot :)


Wow you greatly underestimated Kroos, i have to admit he does look a little slow moving and a little apathetic in game but he is world class. His vision is amazing and can dictate the pace of a game. He links well with he midfield and always finds opening where he can shoot or pass and he was amazing vs Real Madrid last year. He may not be a skilled dribbler like most AM but his technical abilities are that of a 10 year veteran and not a 22-23 yr old player like him also he keeps a cool head.(of hair) :P

Yoda wrote:I have left out Gustavo because, frankly speaking I havent seen enough to judge him and I dont think you will be playing all four together anyways.


Lol no way, Gustavo is not like Martinez. Gustavo is a pure destroyer he doesnt let the opponent get settled in the midfield and breaks up plays well. Also he has developed a killer left foot and can shoot from distance very well. The reason i like Martinez over Gustavo is because a destroyer is all he is. Gustavo doesnt really offer much offensive help like Martinez other than his long range attempts. So if Schweinstiger was to play bad there would be no one to generate chances from the midfield.
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 pm

My preferred formation for this match (I know, I know, it's too early):

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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby Yoda » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 pm

And you forget we have Giroud-Vermaelen-Mertesacker? Giroud is probably the best header of the ball in England at the moment and one of the best in Europe I daresay? Although doubt much aerial football is expected from this tie :)

MUTU wrote:Actually, I am a bit worried about our makeshift defence that will definitely be missing both Badstuber and Boateng (who both had an important part in Bayern reaching the CL final last season) in both legs and should, God forbid, anything happen to Dante, then Bayern are doomed.


I do think thats one disadvantage you have and which Wenger may try and exploit. I dont fancy Van Buyten much to be honest, even though he can be a beast sometimes. Badstuber has settled really well into this side.

EDIT: Not to mention that Arsenal win around 3 more aerial duels per game than Bayern.
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Re: [2013-02-19] Arsenal F.C. vs Bayern Munich

Postby Firefox1234 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:38 pm

When i think about it Quazzi Bayern may score some set pieces. You know how much Wenger loves that zonal marking :P
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