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[2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 pm

TSG 1899 Hoffenheim will win
1
10%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
9
90%
 
Total votes : 10

Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:11 pm

MiaSanFCB wrote:
#12 wrote:
MiaSanFCB wrote:
Dream on what?


About a 5:0, about ever reaching the top of the table again with this shitty excuse of a coach - need more?


We are winning the league again this season with this "shitty excuse of a coach" (as you like to call him) just as we did last season playing with a 35-year-old Alonso as starter, when you predicted Leipzig winning the title and we ended up lifting the trophy with a 15-point lead.

We are simply head and shoulders above every team in the Bundesliga over a 34-round tournament, we can drop points here and there and lose against some direct opponents, but the other teams are simply too inconsistent, as we saw with Leipzig losing to Schalke or Dortmund being unable to beat a 10-man Freiburg team.

I'm certain they will keep dropping points on a regular basis even against some of the weaker teams of the league. The race for the title might be closer than in 2016/17 but in the end we'll prevail even playing badly because of the individual quality of our players. The DFB-Pokal is another story, though.

As for the match against Anderlecht, remains to be seen if we can trash them 5-0 but we are clear favorites playing at home against a weak Belgian team, who sits 9th in its local league and has won just 2 out of their 6 matches so far. In addition, Bayern usually shows a strong reaction after an unexpected defeat and the consequent criticism from the media.

So all in all, I don't see anything of "Dream on" in my comment.


Well, I do, but we will see
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:12 pm

Pelin wrote:in this case, we must define the real problem. Our defence was sleeping and Carlo invents new set ups in order to create playing time for Müller.considering The discussions regarding Müller in German press is affecting him.


We all wish that was the problem. I consider the Muller situation very peripheral compared to what the problem is: besides the poor tactical setup that we look clueless in the field our players are in terrible shape. Just take Thiago (Bayern's best player last season): he was amateurish today. And do not tell that he just came back from from injury because he made the starting 11 for a reason.

Under Guardiola, Bayern tried to play a system so complex that we needed abnormal players to execute it so it was destined to fail but our players were in optimal shape and their shortcomings came precisely from wrong tactics, a few of them out of position or asked to do things that they were not comfortable with. Under Ancelotti there is no tactical plan: we lack rhythm, energy and determination and the players, all of them seem to be a few notches below their normal shape.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Roonzil » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:20 pm

Jorge wrote:
Pelin wrote:in this case, we must define the real problem. Our defence was sleeping and Carlo invents new set ups in order to create playing time for Müller.considering The discussions regarding Müller in German press is affecting him.


We all wish that was the problem. I consider the Muller situation very peripheral compared to what the problem is: besides the poor tactical setup that we look clueless in the field our players are in terrible shape. Just take Thiago (Bayern's best player last season): he was amateurish today. And do not tell that he just came back from from injury because he made the starting 11 for a reason.

Under Guardiola, Bayern tried to play a system so complex that we needed abnormal players to execute it so it was destined to fail but our players were in optimal shape and their shortcomings came precisely from wrong tactics, a few of them out of position or asked to do things that they were not comfortable with. Under Ancelotti there is no tactical plan: we lack rhythm, energy and determination and the players, all of them seem to be a few notches below their normal shape.


But what could possibly be the reason for the lack of fitness and form? Most players have had enough games under their belt to be close to 100%..
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby kingbayern » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:38 pm

we are in a worse shape than Barca on the pitch...just let that sink in...
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:46 pm

kingbayern wrote:we are in a worse shape than Barca on the pitch...just let that sink in...


"Pride goes before a fall" - I mean you were almost ridiculed here by including them in the top teams... Somehow no one ridicules anyone who includes us...
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby JANCKER » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:47 pm

Effenberg777 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
Effenberg777 wrote:kimmich and rafihna were really bad
Who was not?

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

coman


Kimmich was the worst IMO... Rafinha a little better than Kimmich, 2nd worst.
Coman's shitty end product, does everything right then ducks up in the end.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Manchu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:00 pm

Here's how expected goals sees the game:
Can't see tweet? Click here!
For anyone unable to see the tweet:
Bayern Munich: 1.54 expected goals(0 goals)
Hoffenheim: 0.56 expected goals(2 goals)
Odds based on expected goals: Hoffenheim win 11%, Draw 25%, Bayern win 63%.

Goalimpact pre-match odds had Hoffenheim win 30%, Draw 30.6%, Bayern win 39.4%(due to Hoffenheim home field advantage). On a neutral field it would be Hoffenheim win 16.4%, draw 26%, Bayern win 57.6%.

What this all comes out to is that the team did a little better than most people give it credit for. However, we still need to do better. Our biggest problems were bad defense/bad keeping and poor chance creation. I blame the bad keeping on Neuer being out for so long and it will likely not be a long term problem, but we need to be creating ~3.00 expected goals for a game even in an away game, not half of that. Last season we managed to this away against Gladbach(historically a really hard game):
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby gumboduncan » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:41 pm

I see many bandwagon fans jumping off. It's the third match of the season and a match after an international break. The sky isn't falling. Poor performance from everybody. Lucky first goal. Let's judge this season in May.

Please don't jump on the bandwagon when we start rolling.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby kingbayern » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:55 pm

to be honest, I doubt any bandwagon fan would put up with our performance from last season to now so I genuinely believe that real fans are just expressing or venting or ranting about their legitimate concerns. We have the right to criticise when needed and celebrate when needed it goes in rights of being a fan/supporter.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby gumboduncan » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:13 pm

Certainly kingbayern. But some "fans" are acting like the team is going to battle for relegation with their posts. Some "fans" are asking for Carlo's head. Last season was a decent season, We won our main title. Certainly we could've done better, but we won't win the treble every year. We will loose more games this season. Hopefully some of you guys will recognize that. One loss on Matchday 3, on the road against the team that we match really badly with. To me that's unfortunate and I wish we could've done better. We can discuss the tactics and the starting lineup, but don't act like we're shit. We are going for our 6th straight Bundesliga title. We are one of the best teams in Europe. We are Bayern. Lets get behind the team and start focusing on the game against Anderlecht.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Roonzil » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:18 pm

gumboduncan wrote:Certainly kingbayern. But some "fans" are acting like the team is going to battle for relegation with their posts. Some "fans" are asking for Carlo's head. Last season was a decent season, We won our main title. Certainly we could've done better, but we won't win the treble every year. We will loose more games this season. Hopefully some of you guys will recognize that. One loss on Matchday 3, on the road against the team that we match really badly with. To me that's unfortunate and I wish we could've done better. We can discuss the tactics and the starting lineup, but don't act like we're shit. We are going for our 6th straight Bundesliga title. We are one of the best teams in Europe. We are Bayern. Lets get behind the team and start focusing on the game against Anderlecht.


Have you watched any of the recent games.....were any of them enjoyable for you to watch? I'm not talking results, I am not talking trophies or anything like that. I am talking about the joy to watch Bayern play.

It's not (only) about potential trophies, it's about way more than that.

- An identity on the field
- A cohesive team of motivated players
- A tactical game plan
- Integration of younger players
- A transition from old/retiring players to new/young players

Don't think that bc some of us are critical after a shit game, we are bandwagoners...Some of the things we mention have been bothering us for longer than just now. I can only remember about five Ancelotti games I've thoroughly enjoyed watching...I cannot remember the last time we had a squad that was almost fully happy (with playing time, tactics etc.)..
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby gumboduncan » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:43 pm

Well Roonzil. First of all we had a new manager last season. So that was always going to take a few months for the team to jell together and get Carlo's tactics. We started last season slow for Bayern standards but played quite well the rest of it. Secondly I only care about results. We had tiki-taka football for three years and many of us criticized that. That was supposedly the best football out there. So what I'm trying to say is that fancy football doesn't mean jack. If people want attacking beautiful football go watch Arsenal. Unfortunately that doesn't guarantee titles. Ask their fans.

I agree though that this team sometimes seems to lack some fire. As long as we are winning the Bundesliga and going far in the Pokal and CL, I'm happy. Many of you will criticize my thinking, but I think most Bayern fans are like me. I'm a realist so I don't go off after one defeat. This team is very good. We have great individual player that can win games for us. We played two good games against Leverkusen and Werder, not great games but good enough to win. That's what counts. This game was a very winnable game, but our defense went asleep in the first goal. We can argue about Carlo's starting lineup. I would not have left both Robben and Ribery on the bench. They are our best creative players. I would've started Sule instead of Javi. IMO Javi's days are numbered at Bayern. Muller as a winger is not working.

You also talk about integrating young players. I agree to an extent, but Bayern hasn't integrated a young player since Alaba. The philosophy of playing experienced players has made Bayern the European superpower they are today. But the age of our stars is getting to high so this season and the next we need to add several younger players to our core.

And I watch every single game.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Manchu » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:50 pm

Roonzil wrote:Have you watched any of the recent games.....were any of them enjoyable for you to watch? I'm not talking results, I am not talking trophies or anything like that. I am talking about the joy to watch Bayern play.

It's not (only) about potential trophies, it's about way more than that.

- An identity on the field
- A cohesive team of motivated players
- A tactical game plan
- Integration of younger players
- A transition from old/retiring players to new/young players

Don't think that bc some of us are critical after a shit game, we are bandwagoners...Some of the things we mention have been bothering us for longer than just now. I can only remember about five Ancelotti games I've thoroughly enjoyed watching...I cannot remember the last time we had a squad that was almost fully happy (with playing time, tactics etc.)..

The sad thing is that, when I watched the Germany-Norway game, I experienced the kind of joy I haven't experienced once when watching Bayern play this season. I saw a team which knew where it had come from, where it was, and where it was going. The NT, despite only playing together for 10 games a season rather than 50, has a level of organization and cohesion that we just don't have at Bayern, and I don't see any solution to this problem other than firing Ancelotti and replacing him with a better coach(Joachim Low? But then who could coach the NT?).
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Jorge » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:24 am

Roonzil wrote: But what could possibly be the reason for the lack of fitness and form? Most players have had enough games under their belt to be close to 100%..


It could be training, only guessing though since I am not familiar with how the training sessions are handled but for sure there is no rhythm and most of our players lack energy and drive.

Again, of all famous coaches I always found Guardiola's style ineffective, way before he came to Munich, even when he was winning with Barca which I think it was a unique set of circumstances (having the right players at the right time) but no one will deny that he is famous for being too demanding hence a controversial coach but an excellent trainer.

Bayern's Ancelotti does not come across as a creative and flexible coach, due to most players having some kind of freedom in an open system but not being able to leave a mark on the field due to physical limitations (lack of speed, lack of drive) I have reasons to believe that he is not a good trainer either.

This season is still young and who knows if all of the sudden like most teams coached and trained by Italians we start slow and grow with the season and by the time that we are in the KO stages of the champions league we are in optimal form but based on what he is putting on the field as a continuation of what we saw last seasons I have reasons to be worried.
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Re: [2017-09-09] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:28 am

gumboduncan wrote:Well Roonzil. First of all we had a new manager last season. So that was always going to take a few months for the team to jell together and get Carlo's tactics. We started last season slow for Bayern standards but played quite well the rest of it. Secondly I only care about results. We had tiki-taka football for three years and many of us criticized that. That was supposedly the best football out there. So what I'm trying to say is that fancy football doesn't mean jack. If people want attacking beautiful football go watch Arsenal. Unfortunately that doesn't guarantee titles. Ask their fans.

I agree though that this team sometimes seems to lack some fire. As long as we are winning the Bundesliga and going far in the Pokal and CL, I'm happy. Many of you will criticize my thinking, but I think most Bayern fans are like me. I'm a realist so I don't go off after one defeat. This team is very good. We have great individual player that can win games for us. We played two good games against Leverkusen and Werder, not great games but good enough to win. That's what counts. This game was a very winnable game, but our defense went asleep in the first goal. We can argue about Carlo's starting lineup. I would not have left both Robben and Ribery on the bench. They are our best creative players. I would've started Sule instead of Javi. IMO Javi's days are numbered at Bayern. Muller as a winger is not working.

You also talk about integrating young players. I agree to an extent, but Bayern hasn't integrated a young player since Alaba. The philosophy of playing experienced players has made Bayern the European superpower they are today. But the age of our stars is getting to high so this season and the next we need to add several younger players to our core.

And I watch every single game.


We're not a superpower, and Ancelotti HAS no tactics TO get...
We were shit in both previous games and were pretty lucky to win them - both of them ... And luck runs out eventually as we just witnessed...

gumboduncan wrote:Certainly kingbayern. But some "fans" are acting like the team is going to battle for relegation with their posts. Some "fans" are asking for Carlo's head. Last season was a decent season, We won our main title. Certainly we could've done better, but we won't win the treble every year. We will loose more games this season. Hopefully some of you guys will recognize that. One loss on Matchday 3, on the road against the team that we match really badly with. To me that's unfortunate and I wish we could've done better. We can discuss the tactics and the starting lineup, but don't act like we're shit. We are going for our 6th straight Bundesliga title. We are one of the best teams in Europe. We are Bayern. Lets get behind the team and start focusing on the game against Anderlecht.


You're kidding right?

No, we're not getting relegated (I hope) - but we're not **** 59+1, we have a different kind of aspiration!

And we never "matched really badly with" Hoffenheim until he took over - in fact we regularly beat them up and had never lost against them before...
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