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[2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Bayern Munich will win
20
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
VfL Wolfsburg will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 20

Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby walter » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:32 pm

Commodore wrote:
walter wrote:A good example of having "winning mentality" (sensu "me") is Pirlo. The way he took the penalty against England, yet bold and risky, was exactly what Italy needed at the moment to turn things around in the shootout.

I wanted to reply to this earlier but forgot.

Do you remember the penalty shoot out in the UCL playoff game between Braga and Udinese last month? Well, I do. I also remember Maicosuel's penalty. He plays for the losing side Udinese.

Does he, too, have winning mentality, or if not, what is the difference in mentality between him and Pirlo when comparing the two penalties?




You are missing the point and it seems you can't see past the tautological argument of winning mentality you brought up. Pirlo has the winning mentality because on a big stage he had the balls to do what he did while exuding confidence. It was risky, somenone will say stupid, but most people agree that was the turning point in the shootout. If he would have missed, well, that wouldn't have taken away the fact the he had the balls to do it and that he was exuding confidence when he did it, right?

I don't know if you have played the game but I certainly did for a long time. When you are on a penalty shootout and one of you teammates misses, the morale of the team will go down, and that's exactly when having balls, a cool head, and self-confidence really matters (Pirlo). Look at Robben, for example, the last few penalties he took and missed, many here commented, including myself, that we could read in his face that he was going to miss them. He didn't have the "winning mentality," he was lacking self-confidence, which was even more obvious when he decided not to take a penalty in the shootout against Chelsea. He was not able to maintain a cool head and say: "hey, I'm a better penalty taker then Olic, what happened is in the past, and I'm gonna show everyone how you take penalty." Even against Madrid, in the penalty he scored he was lacking self-confidence and it was pretty obvious from his face and gestures. He did score, but it wasn't really a good penalty shot, which actually almost got saved by Casillas.

If Pirlo is not a good example I will point you to one in our own team: Neuer. I will specifically point to a game in which Neuer lost: Germany-Italy. Neuer was the player rallying the team and this was especially evident in the last 5 minutes of the game in which he started to take more risks moving up field, yelling at everyone, and if the final whistle would have been blown 5 seconds later I think Neuer would have even scored because the ball was heading in his direction and he was ready to unleash a volley. So, there you go, NO, I'm not equating "winning mentality" exactly to "winning;" but, again, I didn't even bring this argument of mentality to discussion, it was you. I'm only saying that we are still poor at defending set-pieces and that our strikers are missing too many chances. It's the same two reasons why we lost the final and not because fate played a role on Drogba's header going inside the goal instead of hitting the post, which seems to be your point.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AdepT » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:48 pm

walter wrote:If he would have missed, well, that wouldn't have taken away the fact the he had the balls to do it and that he was exuding confidence when he did it, right?


I bet if he'd have missed it, the media and people would have been saying that he took the penalty too casually since they were behind Eng at that time. Only die hard 'Pirlo' and Juve fans would have said in that case that he had the balls to try something unexpected.

walter wrote: I'm only saying that we are still poor at defending set-pieces and that our strikers are missing too many chances. It's the same two reasons why we lost the final and not because fate played a role on Drogba's header going inside the goal instead of hitting the post, which seems to be your point.


I agree that we still have to better ourselves at defending set-pieces.
Marios have done good job though Gomez has been wasteful at times last season and Mandzukic missed quite a few times against Wolfsburg.
To be truthful, I wouldn't mind the score until we win matches.
Just score that winning goal when it matters most and I wouldn't ever complain about how many chances one missed.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:52 pm

By the way Pirlo did that same PK trick with AC Milan when they played Barcelona in the UCL and he missed cause Valdes just stood there and caught it :P
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby BayernLove » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:54 pm

Pretty sure it was Pinto, Firefox.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:58 pm

BayernLove wrote:Pretty sure it was Pinto, Firefox.


Oh....my bad, either way my point is that the term "winning mentality" is nonsense. When Pirlo missed was that sheer stupidity or "winning mentality" what is the difference :P
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AdepT » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:01 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:By the way Pirlo did that same PK trick with AC Milan when they played Barcelona in the UCL and he missed cause Valdes just stood there and caught it :P


Even if it was Pinto, you couldn't expect more from Valdes. :lol:
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Commodore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:04 pm

My point is not Drogba's header hitting the post. My point is that this whole "winning mentality" spiel here in the forums during the past few days (some called it "balls" some called it "having what it takes", you called it "unreliable on the big occasions") hinges on one thing and one thing only: The outcome. The eventual result of the match, the shoot out, the competition.

Talking about Pirlo's penalty:

walter wrote:It was risky, somenone will say stupid, but most people agree that was the turning point in the shootout.


You say yourself that it was risky. Then a paragraph later you say this:

walter wrote:When you are on a penalty shootout and one of you teammates misses, the morale of the team will go down, and that's exactly when having balls, a cool head, and self-confidence really matters (Pirlo).


What you call Pirlo's balls, cool head and self confidence, it all hinges on him converting the penalty. If he doesn't, he'll not only get mocked for it on Youtube and in the rest of the football world, no, the morale of his team in the shoot out will go down. We don't hear any praises about Maicosuel's balls, now do we?

So again, my point is not Drogba's header per se. My point is - and if I could place a bet on that, I'd bet my entire net worth right now - that *IF* Drogba had hit the crossbar, there would be no talk whatsoever about us "not having what it takes in the big games" or other such bullshit.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not that easy to come to such conclusions, especially not when all of half a second in a 90 minute football match will turn your opinion on the matter by 180°. If that's the case then there's something seriously wrong with how football is evaluated.

In the end I am just pissed at the negative attitude in these forums towards our team's performances this year so far (and frankly I don't care how much more negative fans of other teams are). I spoke my mind about it and was met with numerous replies to the tone of "winning mentality" in the past few days. If you weren't a part of that, I apologize but I couldn't shake off the feeling that this is a general belief among a lot of you guys, and obviously here Drogba's header DOES indeed play a significant role, because without it, none of this would be the case, as in you guys' eyes we'd be the ballsiest team in the world and our winning mentality would be unprecedented.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AdepT » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:22 pm

^ @Commodore :I agree with whatever you've said, though I wouldn't go saying that fans here have a negative attitude. (Alright, hhhh4 is quite the 'negative' guy) Others express their criticisms of the faults that our team should've avoided.
Felt like expressing because it's been twice you've labeled most of the people here as negative and it doesn't look good. They might have reservations about their degree of optimism but in the end everyone here wishes for Bayern to win everything that is to win.

As for me, I an overly optimistic guy. Last year I bet my money on the day of group draws that we'd win CL. I lost in the end but I had hell of time seeing Bayern beat everyone until the final. And I did bet again this time on the day of draw that'd we'd win this year for sure. :mrgreen:

So there you have it. I make up for anyone's reservations about optimism if someone does have it. :D
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby walter » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:06 pm

point well taken, Commodore.

"unreliable on the big occasions." I reckon I should have just said "unreliable," because in Gomez case, I think it has to do more with the alignment of Jupiter and Neptune rather than being a "big occasion" or not. Again, Gomez when in form can be an unstoppable beast, but on the other hand he can wake up on the wrong side of the bed on any given day an not score the easiest sitters for a week or even worst, a whole month.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Commodore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:07 pm

Gotcha.

Peace, and Let's Go Bayern :D.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby tflags » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:53 am

Anyhow I met up with Olic before the game and i still can't believe what an easy going guy he is. I asked him about how was he doing in Wolfsburg and he just gave me that look; a few seconds later he said "it is ok..." LOOL. We chit chat about Croatia, mandatory photo and off he went. I realized what a hard life these guys must have. One minute you are everyone's hero, the next...

Back on topic I just don't get Magath. The guy looks pissed like ALWAYS and his methods are... Well, weird. I was walking around and met Wolfsburg the night before the match and some of the players where having beers. I went 'what??' Then after the game finished, about half an hour later, Wolfsburg was still on the pitch doing laps; albeit slow ones. WTF?
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Aequitas1987 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:49 am

Commodore wrote:My point is not Drogba's header hitting the post. My point is that this whole "winning mentality" spiel here in the forums during the past few days (some called it "balls" some called it "having what it takes", you called it "unreliable on the big occasions") hinges on one thing and one thing only: The outcome. The eventual result of the match, the shoot out, the competition.

Talking about Pirlo's penalty:

walter wrote:It was risky, somenone will say stupid, but most people agree that was the turning point in the shootout.


You say yourself that it was risky. Then a paragraph later you say this:

walter wrote:When you are on a penalty shootout and one of you teammates misses, the morale of the team will go down, and that's exactly when having balls, a cool head, and self-confidence really matters (Pirlo).


What you call Pirlo's balls, cool head and self confidence, it all hinges on him converting the penalty. If he doesn't, he'll not only get mocked for it on Youtube and in the rest of the football world, no, the morale of his team in the shoot out will go down. We don't hear any praises about Maicosuel's balls, now do we?

So again, my point is not Drogba's header per se. My point is - and if I could place a bet on that, I'd bet my entire net worth right now - that *IF* Drogba had hit the crossbar, there would be no talk whatsoever about us "not having what it takes in the big games" or other such bullshit.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not that easy to come to such conclusions, especially not when all of half a second in a 90 minute football match will turn your opinion on the matter by 180°. If that's the case then there's something seriously wrong with how football is evaluated.

In the end I am just pissed at the negative attitude in these forums towards our team's performances this year so far (and frankly I don't care how much more negative fans of other teams are). I spoke my mind about it and was met with numerous replies to the tone of "winning mentality" in the past few days. If you weren't a part of that, I apologize but I couldn't shake off the feeling that this is a general belief among a lot of you guys, and obviously here Drogba's header DOES indeed play a significant role, because without it, none of this would be the case, as in you guys' eyes we'd be the ballsiest team in the world and our winning mentality would be unprecedented.


I dont think there is a real need to criticize the team as it stands right now. We are practically covered in all areas of the pitch, have insane bench strength and are playing quality direct attacking football instead of conservative possession football. However, I don't think you can stop trying to constructively analyze / critique the team in small parts of the game. I dont think this team warrants much criticism right now based on how we are playing but Walter is right about a few things. Also we need to be looking ahead at potentially meeting the likes of Madrid, Barca, Juventus deep in the champions league and seeing how the team needs to be tweaked or improved in certain sections to compete/counter their playstyles.

- Our finishing in front of goal needs to be improved slightly, its not as poor as it was during some points of last season and the season before but that's because of Gomez's streakiness and Kroos and Muller not really hitting their top form like they are doing currently. If Kroos and Muller can continue to keep up their form or at least not completely lose it then we should be OK in the finishing department.

- Our defending from set pieces is STILL SUSPECT. This is still a major issue for us. With Martinez's aerial strength and Schweinsteiger hopefully fully recovered it means we are slightly better off in that aspect as well. However as it stands right now we are playing Badstuber at full-back therefore allowing us to have three tall-ish defenders to defend against set-pieces. Once Alaba comes back and takes his starting spot (which he definitely will) then its going to look a lot like last season. Neuer can only do so much. I am most worried about Boateng's lapse in concentration. I think he is better off not man-marking a key threat during set-pieces (Martinez/Gustavo/Schweinsteiger should do it).

On the plus side we have finally gotten rid of two attributes of our play that was holding us back.

- Over-dependance on Robbery and wing-play, consistently feeding them balls and watching them have to work around getting double teamed was never fun. This season Jupp has realized how much strength we actually have in the center of the pitch and has started utilizing that, especially with the long shots. With Muller always having a tendency to drift inside from the wings it also helps scoring goals from the center of the pitch. It seems that due to the extra competition for spots, Robben and Ribery are playing more combination football as well. I am so excited about that continuing to grow. I know they are capable of wonderful assists and hopefully they finally reach that landmark of being beastly assisters this season.

- Conservative possession play is minimalized. During some matches of last season we would attempt to play like Spain and just consistently pass the ball around from one wing to the center to the other wing, hoping for someone to do something magical and break through. We would be completely scared of losing possession and therefore not taking risks. On the one side our possession football was not quite at the level of Spains because we were lacking in the off-the ball movement category, which meant we were not able to breakthrough a lot of 'park the bus' teams in the Bundesliga and also struggled against counter-attacking teams in Europe with good pressing play (Napoli). This season I am extremely happy that we are playing more direct-attacking football but still giving importance to our possession game. I like the fact that people are doing more early crosses, more off the ball movement, more long shots. All these are potential risks that can cause us to lose possession but its worth doing because we feel more stable in midfield and in the back now.

I don't really have a comment on the winning mentality aspect. I just wanted to say that Its ok to constructively criticize even this amazing Bayern team about the few aspects of the game that can be improved. This is obviously with respect to the potential matchups we will have deep in the champions league.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby MUTU » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:37 am

tflags wrote:Anyhow I met up with Olic before the game and i still can't believe what an easy going guy he is. I asked him about how was he doing in Wolfsburg and he just gave me that look; a few seconds later he said "it is ok..." LOOL. We chit chat about Croatia, mandatory photo and off he went. I realized what a hard life these guys must have. One minute you are everyone's hero, the next...

Back on topic I just don't get Magath. The guy looks pissed like ALWAYS and his methods are... Well, weird. I was walking around and met Wolfsburg the night before the match and some of the players where having beers. I went 'what??' Then after the game finished, about half an hour later, Wolfsburg was still on the pitch doing laps; albeit slow ones. WTF?

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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby FCB general » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:51 am

I have no idea what to say about this game besides... PERFECT! We have played one excellent match which ended just 3:0, but it could be even more than this result.

Đilkoš scored fantastic header and what makes me happy is that we finally have a great player whose head can be very dangerous. In the past we haven't had such a player who can bring us dominance in the air through attacking actions. Last one who I remember was Michael Ballack. Mandžo is the real player for that situations and I'm delighted with that fortune in our squad.

Everyone played pefect, Schweini is becoming a player just as I expected last few years, dominant in the midfield. He's everywhere on the field, has become very dangerous for opponent's goal and that makes me very happy, just as well as Kroos who is doing the same thing and even more when we talk about organizing the game.

Currently, there are many words to describe this, but it's obviously this all about our DOMINATION! Looking forward to match this till the end of the season. :thumbup:
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby MoFattal » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:13 am

MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:Anyhow I met up with Olic before the game and i still can't believe what an easy going guy he is. I asked him about how was he doing in Wolfsburg and he just gave me that look; a few seconds later he said "it is ok..." LOOL. We chit chat about Croatia, mandatory photo and off he went. I realized what a hard life these guys must have. One minute you are everyone's hero, the next...

Back on topic I just don't get Magath. The guy looks pissed like ALWAYS and his methods are... Well, weird. I was walking around and met Wolfsburg the night before the match and some of the players where having beers. I went 'what??' Then after the game finished, about half an hour later, Wolfsburg was still on the pitch doing laps; albeit slow ones. WTF?

Pic or it didn't happen.


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