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[2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Bayern Munich will win
20
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
VfL Wolfsburg will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 20

Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:18 pm

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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby MUTU » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:04 pm

@quaazi @Commodore you are both right and wrong. The truth is somewhere in between.

If someone scores a 90th minute winner only for it to be wrongly disallowed due to a non-existent offside, does the team suddenly not have a winning mentality? Just because a linesman made a mistake?

Similarly if someone scores a late goal, is it always 100 % winning mentality or could it also be attributed to luck?

If Chelsea repeated the penalty in 10 alternate universes, would Drogba have gotten to the ball in all of them, headed accurately and Neuer always gets beaten at his near post in what looked like an almost-routine save for him? I don't think so.

So let's not mix luck with mentality.

Winning mentality can exist without winning. If a player is put on with his team down 3-0 and he scores two and passes a lot to teammates who miss clear chances, then does that particular player not show winning mentality even though his team lost?
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby quaazi » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:50 pm

Okay, uh, I'm not going to respond to posts that bring up the Drogba goal as if it were relevant to the problem anymore.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AdepT » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:53 pm

After going through the views that have been put up by everyone, it's time I do the same:
Do I agree with the statement "If you win, then you've winning mentality; otherwise you don't"? I'd answer with a big NO, I simply DON"T agree!
There can always be only one winner and saying that those who lose out on winning didn't wanna win, that's just idiotic.
Even if you end up losing many times at the final stage, it might be said that you choked or you screwed up but saying that you didn't win just because you didn't wanna win is illogical.
If one doesn't wanna win, why in the world would one give a f*ck about reaching the finals? You want to win that's why you work your ass off and try to reach the finals.

Now does everyone has to be aggressive about winning? That depends. Some are, some aren't. And there have been winners from both categories and losers too. The aggressive is a 'passionate winner' and the other a 'cool one'. So saying this team didn't have that 'do or die' view about winning is wrong. You don't feel bad if you didn't wanna win, you cry because you wanted to win and tried for it but yet you lost. ( I hope you saw the match till end)

Finally if you build up from your losses towards an improved effort, then there lies the right mentality. Winning or not, that's for people to judge.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby MoFattal » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:54 pm

It all depends on how you define "winning mentality". Wanting to win does not mean having a "WM", because that would make the entire Earth population having it; whereas, giving that extra 1% to win is something else. And that 1% is where it matters. Pushing to score a goal in the CL final also does not mean having a "WM", it just means playing football. The same could be said for Chelsea trying to defend their asses the entire game. Both teams were playing football and both were expecting to win.

Now, I am of the argument that "WM" is not generalized to the entire team. It is a matter of individuals. For example, conceding that goal didn't mean that the team had a weak mentality or anything of that sorts; however, it shows that the extra 1% was not there in Boateng to be specific. The same can be said for all those Gomez missings. Let's call it laziness or dumb for the sake of the argument. However, what followed is where one can notice the difference. We conceded 2 goals against Real, and yet we outplayed during the entire proceedings, whereas I remember clearly observing the self-doubt inflicted upon our players (hell, I was self-doubtful myself!) when Drogba scored that header. The drama show starring our players during the shoot-out says it all. Players fighting with each other over who would take a shot (not because of excitement, but because of being scared as shit). FFS, Chelsea's players were practically racing to take their shots, and done so superbly, whereas we had our better shooters (Kroos, Tymo, and YES Robben even if he missed earlier) hiding behind their colleagues. Now that's where the 1% kicked in, and that's where it was missing from some of our star players. They all wanted to win, but as some were prepared to f!ck themselves to win it (i.e. Ribery, Neuer, and Muller), others were counting on the hope, destiny, luck, or whatever you want to call it.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Commodore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:16 pm

quaazi wrote:Okay, uh, I'm not going to respond to posts that bring up the Drogba goal as if it were relevant to the problem anymore.

Wait what? According to your definition of "winning mentality" Drogba's goal couldn't be more relevant to the problem. According to your definition we do have "winning mentality" if Drogba hits the crossbar.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:00 pm

We have winning mentality...and we had it last year. The problem is we had no luck when we needed it.

Making Real Madrid superstars look like they are some Atletico Madrid just shows that. Our players took the game to them. They were not afraid because they were confident and have that winning mentality. You cant look them stupid infront of their own 85.000 fans and millions of people around the world watching that match if you dont have that confidence and mentality.

Now people again talk about Real Madrid being better...but you know what...I am hoping we meet them again and believe me...we will trash them again.

I havent seen more one-sided play in the CL final since I was born. We made Chelsea stars look like some school kids. They spent like 1 billion euros to win the CL [they did in the end] but our homegrown players and players we bought played with them for almost the whole match. Every football fan will tell you that.

The fact is... WE HAD NO LUCK against them. And that is it. If we meet them again this year we will trash them by 5 goals.

The only thing that bothered me was Dortmund but...it seemed like they always scored a goal at the right moment and we missed some crazy chances when we had them. Again a lot of that got to do with not having luck.

Last season was just full of bad feelings...but I must admit we havent looked that strong as last season for more than 10 years...even if we won **** all. Sometimes this things happen in football. But our time will come...or is already here. We will get that CL trophy because we deserve it.

I have never seen us strong as we are now. I follow our club for some 15 years and this is probably the strongest team we had in the last 30 years or so. I am proud of that. We are playing attractive/effective football...I cant remember when was the last time I was happy with our performances.

Once again...

Dominating your opponent for 90 minutes and them having 1 lucky shot that ends up in the net...IS BAD LUCK.

This barcelona team [that won everything there is to win and is probably the best team in the history of football game] also lost against Chelsea, after dominating them over both legs...does that mean they dont have winning mentality...when they won everything there is to win in the last few years?
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AssemFCB » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:24 pm

Commodore wrote:
quaazi wrote:Okay, uh, I'm not going to respond to posts that bring up the Drogba goal as if it were relevant to the problem anymore.

Wait what? According to your definition of "winning mentality" Drogba's goal couldn't be more relevant to the problem. According to your definition we do have "winning mentality" if Drogba hits the crossbar.

The question should not be whether or not Drogba hits the crossbar, but rather what the f**k he was doing up there in the first place and why the f**k did no one do anything about it.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby AssemFCB » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:34 pm

We could have won the game in the first 3 minutes had Schweinsteiger not hit the post from point blank range, but the fact that he was in such a position speaks volumes about his form (and Martinez's role) this season.
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby The Spyware » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:43 pm

TZ quoted a month ago Neuer saying that we LACKED winning mentality last year

End of Discussion :P
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby sch0ll7 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:14 pm

Winning mentality is a silly word...

We lost the final in 99` while conceding 2 goals in extra time...

We were the best team that year...we outplayed Man Utd in the finals...but than they score 2 lucky goals...and in the end they have winning mentality while we have losing mentality. nooooo... they had luck. that is all.

We lacked winning mentality in the penalty shootouts when few players decided they dont want to shoot. But that happened because we were so unlucky throughout the whole match...not capping on all those chances.

You cant just say we didnt have winning mentality when we reached the final of CL after outplaying Man City, Real Madrid, Napoli etc...
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby quaazi » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:28 pm

I'm pretty happy that players like Neuer admit the problem at least, though he certainly isn't one the culprits here. Denial just makes it worse, though, attributing it to such abstract concepts beyond the individuals control, like "luck", as if it were a thing.


(and yes, before anyone comes bitching about me having used the word "luck" or "lucky" or "lacking in luck", I have had knee-jerk reactions too to brand uncomfortable results as something beyond the control of the team that I really, really like and think is the best there is. It's human, but it's not constructive, and one should try to remain objective about it)
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Commodore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:31 pm

So "luck" ain't a thing, yet "winning mentality" is?
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:45 pm

Commodore wrote:So "luck" ain't a thing, yet "winning mentality" is?


Hahaha so true, to me luck is when preparation meets opportunity and i think Bayern and Chelsea had it but only Chelsea capitalized on it. This makes much more sense than "winning mentality" :P
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Re: [2012-09-25] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Commodore » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:07 pm

walter wrote:A good example of having "winning mentality" (sensu "me") is Pirlo. The way he took the penalty against England, yet bold and risky, was exactly what Italy needed at the moment to turn things around in the shootout.

I wanted to reply to this earlier but forgot.

Do you remember the penalty shoot out in the UCL playoff game between Braga and Udinese last month? Well, I do. I also remember Maicosuel's penalty. He plays for the losing side Udinese.

Does he, too, have winning mentality, or if not, what is the difference in mentality between him and Pirlo when comparing the two penalties?


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