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[2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:30 pm

Bayern Munich will win
27
87%
It will end in a draw
2
6%
VfL Wolfsburg will win
2
6%
 
Total votes : 31

Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby tflags » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:45 pm

MUTU wrote:quaazi, you would have gotten my "thanks for post" if not for the "Gomiss" part :|


Doubting El Comandante's future in the team was the lowdown for me. Restoring my hopes in the 3-at-the-back nearly got that thumbs ups clicked though. 8)
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Kevinx67 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:13 pm

Calibayernfan wrote:Any US residents try and watch this on GOLTV? I tried to DVR it but since they cant get their settings right I missed it. First Bayern game I have missed in 4 years. The reply supposedly showing now is an infomercial. Anyone have a good international website that streams and allows replays for the Bundesliga? GolTV I fear is nearly dead and has given up even trying to be a proper network in the US.


While i can't watch the games live i go to Full Matches.com and download the games in HD. You just buy time at speedfiles so you can download them. Next year Fox will have the games


About the game I feel Bayern didn't play so well. 3 in the back looks like shit and it was exposed a little to easy for me. Aliba looked lost in the middle. Would rather see Lahm RB Aliba LB and Boatang and Bastuber as the center backs. Use Dante as the holding mid to Schweinsteiger is fit again. The tactics Pep uses don't work. It didn't work in the WC. Can't see it working now. Forget the League cause Bayern will win it no matter what way they line up. It's the CL That has me worried with the way Pep is coaching them
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby tflags » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:00 pm

quaazi wrote:Pep Guardiola - yep, I went there. His judgement calls on the pitch - Gaudino, Bernat, the three-man line - all worked perfectly. Gaudino was absolutely amazing, his tight ball control left me drooling, it was like the ball was glued to his feet. Bernat finally had that great game that he's been looking for since the start of the season - both offensively and defensively. And finally, the 3-4-3 formation was gorgeous in how it allowed for a far quicker transition game than the 4-2-3-1 or the 4-1-4-1. It allows the transition to be done by the centerbacks without resorting to hoofball, which makes it so much more easy to pick your midfield duo if they have less of a duty to stay behind all the time. Even then, Gaudino was playing in the defensive line during build up and the formation morphed into god knows what monstrosoty then - at one point I saw him as a CB, Badstuber as a LW, and Bernat was lost somewhere in midfield I think.


I really hate to disagree but I didn't see the game that way. I finally had a chance to re-watch the whole thing properly and tbh a 2-2 result minus a post or a disallowed legit goal would have been a fairer result.
From Bayern to Manchester, the three-at-the-back formation is getting a hard time getting sold. Hate to sound the alarm here but Lahm and Bernat were spending more of their time tracking back to the huge portions of the pitch left uncovered than they were doing the triangles on midfield they were supposed to. They killed us on the wings. For God's sake look at the goal Malanda missed. It was a low pass coming from the wings with Lahm tracking back looking for his car keys. They had chance after chance after chance after Rode came in. Chances over.

It was also hard to distinguish what formation they played from DM up because the team kept constantly rotating vigorously from Gaudinio and Alaba as third CB on build up to Robben and Götze switching positions between themselves and also with Müller. Where LvG did this with the wings for nap stretches, Guardiola does it after every single goal kick with everyone but the guys in front of Neuer. Even the wing-backs were switching places with the attacking midfielders. It was really hard as an spectator to keep up.

Wolfsburg on the other hand did an splendid job pressing Dante and Neuer on the center and Lahm and Badstuber on the sides; forcing the team to resort to long balls that ended up with Gaudinio and Alaba and their less than stelar height to lose those aerial challenges.

Our attack had a name. It was Robben. It was ONLY Robben. He was about the only player looking menacing enough to create chances. To be honest, at this point, a dark ages 4-4-1-1 or a WC favourite 5-3-1-1 with Robben on top and space-finder-Müller somewhere undefined behind him would be just as interesting an experiment. What I know is the 3-whatever ain't cutting it as of late.

On a final note I hope we don't overhype Gaudinio. He was fine tbh and had some extremely fine passes forward but seriously; he's playing defensive midfield. Please let him dispossess Dortmund's midfield a couple of times first before we jump to conclusions.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:29 pm

tflags wrote:
quaazi wrote:Pep Guardiola - yep, I went there. His judgement calls on the pitch - Gaudino, Bernat, the three-man line - all worked perfectly. Gaudino was absolutely amazing, his tight ball control left me drooling, it was like the ball was glued to his feet. Bernat finally had that great game that he's been looking for since the start of the season - both offensively and defensively. And finally, the 3-4-3 formation was gorgeous in how it allowed for a far quicker transition game than the 4-2-3-1 or the 4-1-4-1. It allows the transition to be done by the centerbacks without resorting to hoofball, which makes it so much more easy to pick your midfield duo if they have less of a duty to stay behind all the time. Even then, Gaudino was playing in the defensive line during build up and the formation morphed into god knows what monstrosoty then - at one point I saw him as a CB, Badstuber as a LW, and Bernat was lost somewhere in midfield I think.


I really hate to disagree but I didn't see the game that way. I finally had a chance to re-watch the whole thing properly and tbh a 2-2 result minus a post or a disallowed legit goal would have been a fairer result.
From Bayern to Manchester, the three-at-the-back formation is getting a hard time getting sold. Hate to sound the alarm here but Lahm and Bernat were spending more of their time tracking back to the huge portions of the pitch left uncovered than they were doing the triangles on midfield they were supposed to. They killed us on the wings. For God's sake look at the goal Malanda missed. It was a low pass coming from the wings with Lahm tracking back looking for his car keys. They had chance after chance after chance after Rode came in. Chances over.

It was also hard to distinguish what formation they played from DM up because the team kept constantly rotating vigorously from Gaudinio and Alaba as third CB on build up to Robben and Götze switching positions between themselves and also with Müller. Where LvG did this with the wings for nap stretches, Guardiola does it after every single goal kick with everyone but the guys in front of Neuer. Even the wing-backs were switching places with the attacking midfielders. It was really hard as an spectator to keep up.

Wolfsburg on the other hand did an splendid job pressing Dante and Neuer on the center and Lahm and Badstuber on the sides; forcing the team to resort to long balls that ended up with Gaudinio and Alaba and their less than stelar height to lose those aerial challenges.

Our attack had a name. It was Robben. It was ONLY Robben. He was about the only player looking menacing enough to create chances. To be honest, at this point, a dark ages 4-4-1-1 or a WC favourite 5-3-1-1 with Robben on top and space-finder-Müller somewhere undefined behind him would be just as interesting an experiment. What I know is the 3-whatever ain't cutting it as of late.

On a final note I hope we don't overhype Gaudinio. He was fine tbh and had some extremely fine passes forward but seriously; he's playing defensive midfield. Please let him dispossess Dortmund's midfield a couple of times first before we jump to conclusions.


I thought your assessment was a little harsh, though I agree Robben seemed to be the catalyst for all of Bayern's attacks but to say that a draw would have been fair i disagree with. If both sides were as clinical as they should be Bayern would have won.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby MoFattal » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:30 pm

Did we actually play 3 at the back? I could swear I only saw a 4-2-3-1 with the 3 behind Lewy switching around.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:14 pm

It's unfair to pass any evaluation of the 3-4-3 at the moment. Guardiola is seems to actually be using two semi-fullbacks + CD instead of 3 CDs. I hope that's just because of the available personnel. On Gaudino, I'm seeing more of a Thiago alternative for rotation than a Defensive Midfielder, not sure what you guys thought you saw in him.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Badger » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:15 pm

MoFattal wrote:Did we actually play 3 at the back? I could swear I only saw a 4-2-3-1 with the 3 behind Lewy switching around.


Delighted to see someone else asking that question. What I saw was not 3-4-3.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby tflags » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:24 pm

It started as a 3-4-x-x until things got ugly with their pressing and Bernat tracked back to a 4-2-x-x. With Rode Pep stabilized the team with a 4-1-4-1 with a few minutes remaining and Robben was let loose again.
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[2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Badger » Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:45 pm

Possibly it started as 3-4-3. Well, yes, actually it did indeed. But it transposed so early in the game that it became unrecognisable as 3-4-3. By the end, the ground Bernat covered was almost a mirror image of the ground Lahm covered.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby pyrasur » Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:40 am

Gab Marcotti seemed to think Bayern were in a bit of confusion in attempting to play 3-4-3 before he switched to 4-2-3-1. Normally I'd trust Marcotti, but I thought what he saw seemed quite normal? Bernat seems like he will always be given more license to attack, particularly given that's his play and because Götze (I presume he was supposed to play left) was hampered. Not 100% sure of what I saw, other that in defense I saw a back four and Gaudino and Alaba holding midfield. But I thought the formation was intentionally asymmetrical attacking-wise, and that the trend of our attacking midfielders is going to be less constrained by positional discipline.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:25 am

pyrasur wrote: Gab Marcotti seemed to think Bayern were in a bit of confusion in attempting to play 3-4-3 before he switched to 4-2-3-1. Normally I'd trust Marcotti, but I thought what he saw seemed quite normal? Bernat seems like he will always be given more license to attack, particularly given that's his play and because Götze (I presume he was supposed to play left) was hampered. Not 100% sure of what I saw, other that in defense I saw a back four and Gaudino and Alaba holding midfield. But I thought the formation was intentionally asymmetrical attacking-wise, and that the trend of our attacking midfielders is going to be less constrained by positional discipline.


I got the same idea as well, it did not look like the players had a certain position they were supposed to stick to, especially the center midfielders and wing backs who rotated frequently.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby Badger » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:08 am

Firefox1234 wrote:
pyrasur wrote: Gab Marcotti seemed to think Bayern were in a bit of confusion in attempting to play 3-4-3 before he switched to 4-2-3-1. Normally I'd trust Marcotti, but I thought what he saw seemed quite normal? Bernat seems like he will always be given more license to attack, particularly given that's his play and because Götze (I presume he was supposed to play left) was hampered. Not 100% sure of what I saw, other that in defense I saw a back four and Gaudino and Alaba holding midfield. But I thought the formation was intentionally asymmetrical attacking-wise, and that the trend of our attacking midfielders is going to be less constrained by positional discipline.


I got the same idea as well, it did not look like the players had a certain position they were supposed to stick to, especially the center midfielders and wing backs who rotated frequently.


I think that those two posts are closer, than any other comments I've read here, to identifying what was happening in the Wolfsburg game.

Even last season Guardiola replied, when asked about 4-1-4-1 and other formations, that these are just meaningless numbers. Most formations morph in and out of their shape on a forwards-backwards axis, depending on whether the team is attacking or defending. I think that Guardiola will show us a new level of fluidity this season, with the formation often unrecognisable for much of the game. (Although the players will know what's going on and where they should be.) Guardiola's Bayern will morph in and out of 3-4-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 formations on a forwards-backwards axis AND will morph asymmetrically on a side-to-side basis depending on whether one particular wing carries more threat against them than the other. (And they will rotate the attacking midfield.)

The clearest example of this in the Wolfsburg game was the way Bernat got back when de Bruyne posed a continued attack on his wing and Lahm got forward a bit more.

I'm looking forward to the next game to see whether this becomes more evident. Certainly, I feel that, at the very least, identifying rigid formations is a thing of the past.
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Re: [2014-08-22] Bayern Munich vs VfL Wolfsburg

Postby tflags » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:18 pm

tflags wrote:On a final note I hope we don't overhype Gaudinio. He was fine tbh and had some extremely fine passes forward but seriously; he's playing defensive midfield. Please let him dispossess Dortmund's midfield a couple of times first before we jump to conclusions.


Anyhow, some more food for thought:

Cowper wrote:There's also significant concern attached to playing any 17-year-old and a huge piece of that was born out as he didn't register a single tackle or interception. Ordinarily that kind of criticism comes with an opportunities caveot, but considering his defensive midfield partner David Alaba registered a combined total of 5, it's clear the defensive work was there needing to be done. Furthermore, he registered only a single foul for and against indicating a decisive lack of physical gameplay. Which considering the age and his very small frame, that shouldn't be unexpected.
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