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[2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:00 pm

Bayern Munich will win
3
75%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
RasenBallsport Leipzig will win
1
25%
 
Total votes : 4

Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby #12 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:36 pm

JANCKER wrote:Emil Forsberg has been banned for 3 games by the DFB.


Not enough IMHO... Real **** playing for a real **** club...
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby JANCKER » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:37 pm

He apologized, come on... Lahm used to grab players for their shorts time to time.

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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby #12 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:46 pm

It's a difference to stop someone unfairly or to risk his health...
That being said, I just saw his interview 2mins ago... It seems like an honest mistake and he actually sounded understanding... Still, I think that kind of foul deserves 5...
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby JANCKER » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:49 pm

If I didn't think it was a honest mistake, I wouldn't forgive him.
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby #12 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:51 pm

Still I think those fouls need to be punished hard...
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:30 pm

#12 wrote:Still I think those fouls need to be punished hard...

We're lucky he even got 3 considering this will tip the title race in our favour... :wink:
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby DRvad14 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:51 pm

Bayern, Carlo Ancelotti's preparation get them a statement win vs. Leipzig BY GABRIELE MARCOTTI

Spoiler: show
You couldn't help but notice the sign camped out behind one of the goals: "Gegen den Modernen Fussball," or "Against Modern Football."

In a match like this, between joint Bundesliga table-toppers Bayern Munich and RB Leipzig, it provided several apt subtexts. The obvious reference, of course, is to the loose movement that's bubbled all around Europe for the past decade and which, among other things, has tried to fight back against the perceived ills of the modern game: over-commercialization, sanitised match day "experiences," rank-and-file fans priced out, profit-driven owners and a general made-for-TV plastic sameness.

You'll see that banner at virtually every Bayern game but on Wednesday night, it felt specifically directed at the visitors. To plenty they epitomise a certain kind of "modern football," which is why they are generally loathed in Germany.

(Of course, it's not as if as Bayern are exactly a mom-and-pop operation, either. But the fact that they're not bankrolled by an interloper who made his fortune flogging caffeinated soft drinks and marketing the bejeezus out of everything -- were he the father of twins, you could see him naming them "Red" and "Bull" -- makes their form of "modern football" more palatable to most.)

You could not help but note that other clash, this one was purely footballing. If Leipzig and the Ralf Rangnick/Andreas Hasenhuttl duo represent a certain kind "modern football" on the pitch -- state-of-the-art scouting and preparation, relentless high-energy pressing, physicality and aggression -- then Bayern, especially in the Carlo Ancelotti incarnation, stand for something else. It's the understanding that while teams win titles, teams are made up of individuals.

This is especially true the higher up the food chain you go (and Bayern are pretty darn close to the ceiling) because the better your team, the more likely you are to have difference-makers, guys who can turn games out of little or nothing, in your squad.

And individuals aren't robots; their output and production fluctuates. You have to manage the individual to ensure he's in the best possible condition when he gets on the pitch. You also have to design a system that allows for ebbs and flows, one that can weather the lows because you know all too well that the highs will result in goals. In a low-scoring sport, that makes all the difference.Bayern's resounding 3-0 thumping on Wednesday night was not merely the result of the Bavarians having better players. On the night, they were better prepared too, mentally and tactically as we saw in the first half-hour.

You saw it in the way their movement, use of flanks and deployment of Thiago Alcantara in a free role busted massive holes in Leipzig's vaunted "pressing machine." And you saw how it rattled Hasenhuttl's crew, from Naby Keita getting caught in possession (how ironic that Bayern's second goal was straight out of the Rangnick counter-pressing playbook) to Emil Forsberg's boneheaded, tactical hackdown of Philip Lahm that led to his red card.

Those were mental mistakes, sure, but they were borne of the fact that what they were seeing -- Bayern's scheme and the way it was executed -- was not what they had prepared for.

"Our system only works when every single player acts in a synchronised way," Hasenhuttl said after the match. "Some of our players were not in the right condition to give everything. And that's one me."

He's right. That's the Achilles' heel of the pressing philosophy. There is no room for passengers. When one cog in the machine isn't turning perfectly, it's easily busted, particularly by opponents who can pass their way through. Equally, when the opposition's ball circulation drives you deep and you find yourself incapable of pressing them high, your system won't work.

At full-time, Bayern had 76 percent of the ball and, of course, you can put that down to the fact that they played an hour with an extra man. But even when it was 11 vs. 11 in that first half-hour, Bayern's possession numbers were at 63 percent and Leipzig had barely registered a presence Mister Neuer's Neighborhood: evidence that the visitors were chasing the ball aimlessly, mostly in their own half.

Ancelotti said it was the best 30 minutes Bayern have produced since his arrival in Munich and that may well be true. But the performance speaks to something else, a point that those who dismiss him merely as a jovial Galactico-whisperer who coaxes superstars into producing often miss.

Thirty years ago next June, Ancelotti signed for Milan and Arrigo Sacchi, in many ways the father of the modern pressing game. Rangnick has long credited Sacchi as being one of his inspirations.

As a two-way central midfielder, Ancelotti was the architect of Milan's pressing under Sacchi and he saw, first-hand, the good and the bad of the system. He understood the importance of getting superstars to work together in a blue-collar way (and that team, from Roberto Donadoni to Marco Van Basten, from Frank Rijkaard to Ruud Gullit, was packed with talent) and how effective a sophisticated, relentless press could be. But he was also very clear on the weak points, precisely because he lived it from the inside (he went on to serve as Sacchi's assistant with the national team as well). He understood just why Sacchi's Milan -- while winning back-to-back European Cups -- only won one Serie A title in three years, finishing 12 points back and two back the other two seasons.

That kind of football is physically uber-demanding and however well you prepare, an opponent who is smart and lucky can trip you up. It's not (at least in the Sacchi incarnation) designed to deliver week-in, week-out results as much as it is about raising your game in individual matches.Players are not robots; they have their own performance rhythms. This is why Ancelotti has employed a range of tactical schemes throughout his career and why they've always been player-driven, with the idea that, if you have a difference-maker in your ranks, it's best to have a scheme that allows him to be one. That's why his pressing, far from being continuous as it was under predecessor Pep Guardiola, is intermittent, so that you can regroup and allow your stars a breather. Because if you don't give them a breather, they won't act like stars, they won't have the freshness and they'll lack the lucidity to be difference makers when the situation arises.

He has worked to implement these concepts at Bayern and it has been a somewhat bumpy ride based on both performances and results. Guardiola won his Champions League group in each of his three seasons and at this stage his team had 44, 42 and 43 points respectively; Ancelotti's Bayern finished second in the group stage and are on 39 points. What's more, they've been less fluid and more reliant on individuals.

But those are the growing pains of weaning a star-studded group of veterans off of Guardiola's football. Not because it wasn't good or wasn't right, but simply because he's a different manager with a different outlook on the game. He wasn't brought in to ape Pep; he was brought in to build and tweak and evolve the side. (Just as, even though some fail to see it, Guardiola continues his tactical evolution at Manchester City.)

Time will tell whether it works. Certainly, going into a month-long winter break on the back of such a result is a huge boost. It allows Bayern to work in tranquility; it builds confidence in the way forward. The two weeks of winter training camp will be absolutely crucial to the rest of the campaign. Wednesday, though, showed that quality, passing, intelligence and movement (old school values, if you will) can still outplay "modern football." Especially when they borrow from it in the right moments.

As for Leipzig, this is a bloody nose but it's worth remembering how far ahead of schedule they are. Four of their starting XI are 22 or younger. Rangnick's 4-2-2-2 is a work in progress; clever managers evolve and so too will his pressing system. The challenge going forward is strengthening the squad qualitatively -- money is not an issue, as evidenced by the fact that they were the biggest net spenders last summer, eclipsing Bayern by a factor of two-and-a-half to one -- while finding guys who fit the philosophy. In other words, getting queen bees who are happy to work like drones.
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby German-American » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:58 pm

Athletes shouldn't hold grudges, if they do they'll try to seek revenge next time they met. The red card was drawn and we should move on.
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby DRvad14 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:07 pm

Bayern break unrecognisable Leipzig press

Spoiler: show
Bayern produced their best performance of the season to thrash a weak RB Leipzig in the most eagerly-anticipated match of the now-passed Hinrunde. Ancelotti’s side skilfully handled the visitors’ pressing, which had an off-day lacking several features which define their excellent success so far. Sadly, the game was practically over by the 30th minute, after Forsberg was dismissed for a challenge on Lahm while an excellent Bayern were already two ahead. Therefore, the analysis focuses largely on the first half of football.

The starting formations


Thiago is key

In Bayern’s midfield triangle, Thiago adopted the most advanced role while Arturo Vidal and Xabi Alonso assumed deeper positions in the structure. The pairing were important in creating stability in the build-up, and allowing the Spaniard to enjoy a more free role higher up the pitch where the world-class midfielder asserted himself in one of the performances of the season.

Thiago’s movement was typically dynamic, and he would move to become an active participant in most areas of the midfield, as far-reaching as deep in the right half-space. The number six was most prominent however, in the advanced spaces from which he would put his team ahead. He frequently looked to find gaps within the RBL midfield – which was less compact than usual – and then use his outstanding pressing-resistance to maintain and continue the attack as well as engaging in Bayern’s strong interplays.

Thiago’s movements were often in accompaniment with supportive runs of his teammates, which enabled him to become free. Lewandowski regularly drifted to the right wing, where he could contribute to potential overloads and free Robben, but importantly provide Thiago with greater freedom centrally. A range of structures and movements were seen on the left, with Costa sometimes dropping in to occupy Keïta and free Thiago in space, while Alaba’s variable runs in- and outside helped to create room too.

His activity between the lines allowed him – and thus Bayern – to form attacks from strategically-strong areas of the pitch – something which teams lack when playing against RBL. Some form of Bavarian presence between the lines also allowed the hosts to switch possession from higher positions, allowing attacks from Robben and Lahm to begin in more threatening positions.

Bayern’s Attacking Strategy

Thiago was sometimes freed by Costa's inside movement to help occupy Keïta.


These movement schemes were part of an overall attacking strategy for the Bavarians, who aimed to overload the left side of the field through the trio of Alaba, Costa, Thiago and at-times Lewandowski, Vidal and even Hummels too. The structures were dynamic, with the versatility of Alaba allowing him to play on the touchline or inside, while Thiago acted as a combinative influence in the half-space.

The plan was evident from build-up, which commonly saw a pattern of right-to-left circulation in order to create space for Hummels to make the first progression. Vidal would move towards the left half-space to overload the areas in-front of Poulsen, who was commonly moving out (and too slowly) as the ball reached Hummels. In doing so, they consistently had a means of breaking Leipzig’s press, and finding space for one of Alaba, Thiago or Costa in the emerging gaps ahead of them.

Crucial to advancing possession during these moments was the speed of combinations, which allowed Bayern to beat any pressure of Leipzig. The rapid wall-passes of Costa into the inside gaps specifically were crucial in giving Bayern access back into the centre after the wide-play dragged Leipzig out. Thiago or an underlapping Alaba were the common beneficiaries, and could then carry the ball diagonally towards goal and access more dangerous spaces as opposed to continuing the attack down the isolated flank.

A common pattern from these left-sided overloads would be to quickly switch the ball, to initiate an attack from Robben and Lahm. The Dutchman would typically move inside and sometimes received the pass from a rather narrow position, while Lahm overlapped wider. During these moments, Thiago’s high position offered good presence in the spaces behind Lewandowski, and such a pattern was evident in the opening Bavarian goal. Through this wider strategy, Bayern were able to force a number of isolations for both Costa and Robben to use against their full-backs. Their ability to diagonally access the middle of Leipzig’s block allowed them to create dangerous attacks instead of being restricted to the wider areas.

In many ways it was reminiscent of the strategies Guardiola and others have used against Bayer Leverkusen in the past, resorting to combinations in wider areas instead of getting into a battle for the centre. Ancelotti’s team executed it brilliantly too, which was a result of individual qualities and the best display of tactical synergy this season. Their job was made far easier, however, by a poor and uncharacteristic performance from Leipzig.

Leipzig’s Pressing Issues

The success of Hasenhüttl’s side in the first half of the season has been in large part down to their un-rivalled pressing game. Yet in their most important game of the season, Leipzig made a completely uncharacteristic performance, missing a number of their key elements such as the intensity within their block, and their access during oppositional build-up.

Leipzig were unable to maintain an ability to pressure the ball, which allowed Bayern to find Thiago between the lines on a frequent basis.


Their problems stemmed from the earliest moments of their defensive game, where they struggled signififcantly to sustain access in their pressure. Werner and Poulsen were often far too passive in their movements out of possession, not only in engaging the Bayern players, but in initially establishing a position to do so. The ball-far striker was too distanced from the centre-back to challenge him on a switch of possession, which Bayern used (particularly from Martinez to Hummels) to create space in the left half-space to advance.

Leipzig’s ball-oriented shifts against Bayern’s build-up were often of insufficient speed and accuracy, which contributed to their access-issues. Against Bayern’s circulation, the defenders often moved too slowly from one side to the other, and were unable to find an adequately-close position to the ball. This was often the case in the covering striker, when emerging from the deeper position to engage his centre-back. By not adjusting to the position of the ball correctly, the RBL players were often too far away from it to properly apply pressure. The wider-focus of Bayern’s possession was then poorly defended, as Hummels and Martinez (and sometimes Vidal) were given too much time to find the appropriate penetrating ball. Horizontal circulation in Bayern’s build-up allowed them to easily create space as Leipzig weren’t shifting accordingly, and advance the ball down the wide areas through the widely-oriented structure.

Credit must be given to Bayern’s build-up, which was swift and well-coordinated to quickly penetrate the first line of pressure. Vidal’s dropping movements helped to stabilise the first line, and create appropriate distances between the back three in order to make adequate pressure difficult due the distance required to cover. The sheer ball-playing ability of Bayern’s deepest players was also influential in allowing them to bypass Leipzig in a more direct manner, with penetrative vertical passes into Thiago, or longer, lofted passes to the ball-far side. When Alonso dropped into the first line, he was able to play some excellent flat diagonal passes towards Costa who made movements in behind the defensive line. Bayern’s speed in their combinations, as mentioned above, was important in reducing the access of Leipzig’s pressure, particularly during wider developments. Through a fast movement of the ball, Leipzig struggled to maintain an ability to challenge it and, combined with well-timed and variable off-ball movement, Bayern could break the press consistently.

Aside from their pressing, issues could be found within the defensive block too, which lacked the usual control which has overcome many high-quality opponents so far. The distances between the players within the middle were often inadequate, with the lane between the two sixes commonly being open. This lack of compactness is completely out-of-the-ordinary for Leipzig, and gaps were available for Thiago and co. to receive the ball and attack through the middle. Moreover, the lack of pressure at the front of the block meant that Bayern were gifted with plentiful opportunities to exploit their opponent’s poor coverage of the space.

This lack of compactness and poor distances within the block could’ve been somewhat masked with a high intensity, yet they were lacking in this department, too. When Bayern were able to move the ball inside Leipzig’s defence, the usual high-pressure reaction was nowhere to be seen, allowing Bayern to play through it. The usual pressure of Keïta and Demme, who are able to control large spaces with their defensive activity, was non-existent and thus players such as Thiago were able to enjoy time in dangerous areas. Of course the issues are inter-related – the poor distances between the central players made access weak, and thus it became difficult to reach their typical intensity.

In some moments, there were just inexplicable errors in the Leipzig pressing. Thiago once received the ball between the lines with very low compactness on a completely unchallenged pass. Such scenes typified an underwhelming performance by the visitors, whose press looked almost unrecognisable from the game that’s taken the Bundesliga by storm.

After the Red

Leipzig’s issues multiplied when they were reduced to ten just 30 minutes in. They were already trailing by two, rendering a comeback near-impossible and hopes of improving their pressing game were diminished.

The issue lied mainly in their pressure of Bayern’s first line, as their 4-4-1 formation further dampened their inability to generate access. They still attempted to press Bayern, and Keïta or Demme sometimes moved higher to support Werner, who was now the lone striker, but it was largely insufficient in creating enough presence to disrupt Bayern’s build-up. There were some dangerous moments, such as when Alonso was caught out by moments of pressure, but Leipzig rarely threatened overall.

The hosts could now build their attacks with even more freedom, resulting in more clean progressions and thus a better start to their attacks. Good build-up to initiate attacks can have a wide array of benefits, which is why managers such as Guardiola and Juan Manuel Lillo have prioritised this moment in possession. They can result in attacks starting closer to the opponent’s goal, with better momentum for combinations, create more space for the resulting attack and help to develop more appropriate structures for combinations, to name a few.

Bayern enjoyed a lot of these benefits, and with a greater ability to construct their attacks, they controlled the game and were content to lessen the pace for a more stable match rhythm. They dominated the first line, and easily outnumbered Werner – too much so at-times, but the game-state allowed it. Leipzig’s inability to generate and sustain access was typified in Bayern’s exchange of passes before Hummels’ direct pass saw Gulacsi bring down Costa for the penalty.

Conclusion

Had Forsberg stayed on the field, and Leipzig improved their defensive game, then there could have been life left in the game. But they didn’t, and there wasn’t. Bayern continued their performance from the first half, and proceeded to dominate, amassing a number of good-quality shots and stopping Leipzig from creating any. They saved their best performance for the most-important game of their Hinrunde, and handled the visitor’s pressure masterfully.
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby Pelin » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:12 am

Honestly, l didn't like Hasenhütl's set up vs us, which was so vulnerable. Firstly, he lost the control of midfield, also considering Keita was not at %100. He should have added extra midfielder instead Poulsen.it made things alot easier than us.


Regarding Alonso, l wanted to say is we can't evaluate his perfonmance right because of 2 factors. 1-see above. 2-red card. This is why l said that he is always our weakest link and he can be the vulnerable point vs a solid side and can cost us games.
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:33 am

Pelin wrote:Honestly, l didn't like Hasenhütl's set up vs us, which was so vulnerable. Firstly, he lost the control of midfield, also considering Keita was not at %100. He should have added extra midfielder instead Poulsen.it made things alot easier than us.


Regarding Alonso, l wanted to say is we can't evaluate his perfonmance right because of 2 factors. 1-see above. 2-red card. This is why l said that he is always our weakest link and he can be the vulnerable point vs a solid side and can cost us games.

Tbf RBL's squad is way too young and inexperienced. No wonder they couldn't make it against a squad a rich and decorated as Bayern's. The fact that they are second is a huge testament to their project and Hassenhütl's ideas.

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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby JANCKER » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:35 am

We played an excellent game... we'd have beaten anyone on that day. Our team wanted to make a statement...
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby kingbayern » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:18 am

honestly though two players i would take from RB and thats Keita and Emil....those two are future stars
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby MUTU » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:15 am

BayernForum.com MOTM was Thiago with an average Voopl vote of 8.75.
2nd place Lahm (8.42)
3rd place Costa (8.33) [source]
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Re: [2016-12-21] Bayern Munich vs RB Leipzig

Postby ottackon » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:49 pm

For some, the final game of 2016 against RB Leipzig also qualified as a big game for FC Bayern this season, even though ELO only ranks Leipzig as number 43 in Europe. Spielverlagerung and Outside Of The Boot each emphasized Bayern’s approach in breaking Leipzig’s pressing game.


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