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[2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:30 pm

Bayern Munich will win
8
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
TSG 1899 Hoffenheim will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 8

Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:02 pm

You can't play a high defense line with the slowest possible back four (and GK) at your disposal. Surely the tactical genius that is Pep should have known this basic rule, no? It was a bit suicidal.

Contento: slower than Alaba
Rafinha: slower than Lahm
Dante: slower than Boateng
Starke: slower than Neuer
van Buyten: slower than.... OK let's not go there.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby YlonenXabi » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:05 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Oh yes, Pep's subs were also not as good as usual today. I think he just wanted to give certain players the right amount of playing time before the Man United game, and wasn't really concerned with the outcome of the game.


That's exactly what happened.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby YlonenXabi » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:06 pm

MatZam wrote:I also can't understand why Starke played today. I think that he does deserve some minutes, but play him against Bremen, Hamburg, Braunschweig, etc... Not against the team with the second best attack in the league!


He is a former Hoffenheim player, so it was a special game for him.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby sch0ll7 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:16 pm

It was a great game to watch.

So we draw 1 game after how many wins? Pep made a good decision with rotating. We are champions and now we are aiming for CL. Starke deserved some playing time and so did Contento [who is the most limited left back out there...ok maybe Braafheid is worse :)]. DVB also needed to get some playing time so we could rest Boateng and Martinez.

Imagine if Alaba, Martinez, Boateng or Neuer got injured today? Everyone would write about how could Pep be so stupid and play them when he could just rotate as we are already champions.

This was our weakest lineup this season and we still managed to play some great football...after all the players celebrated and probably got drunk 3 days ago. You could see that because Hoffenheim players were fresher at the end and could still press like crazy.

Most of our starters will be fresh on tuesday and that is all that matters.

Plus it is a wake-up call for all of us...so we can see that we are not unbeatable if we are not giving 100%.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby MatZam » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:18 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:
MatZam wrote:I also can't understand why Starke played today. I think that he does deserve some minutes, but play him against Bremen, Hamburg, Braunschweig, etc... Not against the team with the second best attack in the league!


He is a former Hoffenheim player, so it was a special game for him.


A coach cannot use that as a basis for team selection,he needs to select a squad suited to the match.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby runaway » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:21 pm

U Mad? :lol:
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby Grimnir » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:21 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:
MatZam wrote:I also can't understand why Starke played today. I think that he does deserve some minutes, but play him against Bremen, Hamburg, Braunschweig, etc... Not against the team with the second best attack in the league!


He is a former Hoffenheim player, so it was a special game for him.


Imo it doesn't matter, Hoffenheim also have a great attack force which it wouldn't have been difficult to predict Starke wouldn't be enough against. It seems Guardiola was just hoping that Hoffenheim's own terrible defense would be enough to balance the scales, but the truth is even with just having Neuer in net the outcome would likely have been quite different and we'd probably have finished 3-1.

On another note as far as others' comments on van Buyten's performance...thing is in the away leg against United we don't really have another option (at least imo). For me Martinez is equal to van Buyten or worse and on top of that is definitely more of a liability than van Buyten since he's begun diving and fouling so much to compensate for being such a poor CB and getting caught out often. It's a difficult situation with Dante missing the first leg, but I'm pretty confident we'll make it through. We often play well in England and United have just been piss poor this season.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:22 pm

The problem wasn't team selection. The problem was the tactics that weren't suited to the players.
As I explained earlier:

MUTU wrote:You can't play a high defense line with the slowest possible back four (and GK) at your disposal. Surely the tactical genius that is Pep should have known this basic rule, no? It was a bit suicidal.

Contento: slower than Alaba
Rafinha: slower than Lahm
Dante: slower than Boateng
Starke: slower than Neuer
van Buyten: slower than.... OK let's not go there.


If Guardiola didn't instruct the players to defend so high, they would never have scored 3 goals. Case in point, one of their goals happened when their striker who was ahead of the whole Bayern back four wasn't signalled for offside as the pass happened while the player was in his defending half. At that point, there were 21 players in Hoffenheim's half and Starke all alone in Bayern's half. That shouldn't be happening with such slow defenders.

Tweak the tactics to suit the players, and the players would have played just fine.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby runaway » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:28 pm

Agree with MUTU, this defense wouldn't be able to work in a high line. As evidenced with some of the goals we conceded. But our finishing as always still needs to be worked on. We kinda slowed things down and :coffee: in the 2nd half. Let our guard down on the 2nd best attack in Buli. #-o

Not worried much. Records are all well and good but breaking records every week kinda lost it glamour. :wink:
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby envagyokazapad » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:33 pm

Grimnir wrote:
YlonenXabi wrote:
MatZam wrote:I also can't understand why Starke played today. I think that he does deserve some minutes, but play him against Bremen, Hamburg, Braunschweig, etc... Not against the team with the second best attack in the league!


He is a former Hoffenheim player, so it was a special game for him.


Imo it doesn't matter, Hoffenheim also have a great attack force which it wouldn't have been difficult to predict Starke wouldn't be enough against. It seems Guardiola was just hoping that Hoffenheim's own terrible defense would be enough to balance the scales, but the truth is even with just having Neuer in net the outcome would likely have been quite different and we'd probably have finished 3-1.

On another note as far as others' comments on van Buyten's performance...thing is in the away leg against United we don't really have another option (at least imo). For me Martinez is equal to van Buyten or worse and on top of that is definitely more of a liability than van Buyten since he's begun diving and fouling so much to compensate for being such a poor CB and getting caught out often. It's a difficult situation with Dante missing the first leg, but I'm pretty confident we'll make it through. We often play well in England and United have just been piss poor this season.


To be honest, while I'm not too happy with Martinez as a CB, DVB has been disastrous under Pep, because like MUTU said he's just too slow. You can't play Pep's system with DVB which is why I'd definitely choose Martinez over DVB.

MUTU I think a high line of defense is quite standard for Guardiola, I don't think he'll ever really give up on that, meaning if DVB can't adapt to that, he simply won't play.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:35 pm

^ That's the thing. Guardiola needs to learn to adapt his tactics to the players or else to avoid such rotation in future. I'd prefer the former... what would happen if we have an injury crisis at the back?
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:41 pm

MUTU wrote:You can't play a high defense line with the slowest possible back four (and GK) at your disposal. Surely the tactical genius that is Pep should have known this basic rule, no? It was a bit suicidal.

Contento: slower than Alaba
Rafinha: slower than Lahm
Dante: slower than Boateng
Starke: slower than Neuer
van Buyten: slower than.... OK let's not go there.

Exactly. It's not the high line that is dangerous (although it has its risks). It's the players chosen today, who do not fit the tactics. If you compare how we defend today with how we defended with LVG, it's obvious that the issue is not the tactic itself, but the players. Today's defensive lineup resembled LVG's time a lot: no Neuer, no Alaba, Van Buyten. Heck, maybe it was even worse, considering Lahm wasn't at RB.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby MUTU » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:43 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:You can't play a high defense line with the slowest possible back four (and GK) at your disposal. Surely the tactical genius that is Pep should have known this basic rule, no? It was a bit suicidal.

Contento: slower than Alaba
Rafinha: slower than Lahm
Dante: slower than Boateng
Starke: slower than Neuer
van Buyten: slower than.... OK let's not go there.

Exactly. It's not the high line that is dangerous (although it has its risks). It's the players chosen today, who do not fit the tactics. If you compare how we defend today with how we defended with LVG, it's obvious that the issue is not the tactic itself, but the players. Today's defensive lineup resembled LVG's time a lot: no Neuer, no Alaba, Van Buyten. Heck, maybe it was even worse, considering Lahm wasn't at RB.

The players are part of the team and under contract, the tactics are not. It was the tactics that needed to change, not the team selection. This team selection could have been a result of an injury crisis during an important match. Would Pep have played with that tactics in such a scenario?
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby Grimnir » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:55 pm

envagyokazapad wrote:
Grimnir wrote:Imo it doesn't matter, Hoffenheim also have a great attack force which it wouldn't have been difficult to predict Starke wouldn't be enough against. It seems Guardiola was just hoping that Hoffenheim's own terrible defense would be enough to balance the scales, but the truth is even with just having Neuer in net the outcome would likely have been quite different and we'd probably have finished 3-1.

On another note as far as others' comments on van Buyten's performance...thing is in the away leg against United we don't really have another option (at least imo). For me Martinez is equal to van Buyten or worse and on top of that is definitely more of a liability than van Buyten since he's begun diving and fouling so much to compensate for being such a poor CB and getting caught out often. It's a difficult situation with Dante missing the first leg, but I'm pretty confident we'll make it through. We often play well in England and United have just been piss poor this season.


To be honest, while I'm not too happy with Martinez as a CB, DVB has been disastrous under Pep, because like MUTU said he's just too slow. You can't play Pep's system with DVB which is why I'd definitely choose Martinez over DVB.


It probably depends on perspective but I see Martinez as having a similar problem though. The last Arsenal match was an example of that. Is he really an improvement? Trying to find the footage but a few times Martinez was caught out (thinking especially of being caught on a breakaway against I forget which Arsenal player that he fouled pointlessly even though Neuer was taking care of it) and at least twice in the match resulted in a needless foul or dive from his part. It's too bad because I really liked him beside Basti, but he's seems to be turning into a dirty player as a result of underperforming as CB. So on top of being also slow and getting caught out I just see him as doubly a problem because of increased risk as far as potential penalties or being carded. And it just seems to keep getting worse every time he plays.
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Re: [2014-03-29] Bayern Munich vs Hoffenheim

Postby Waka » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:58 pm

It would be easy to blame the Ref (Dingert just didn't do a good job), but he didn't score 3 goals against us. Too bad for Starke that he couldn't keep his clean sheet...
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