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[2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:02 pm

Bayern Munich will win
14
93%
It will end in a draw
1
7%
Borussia Dortmund will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 15

Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:05 pm

It is easy to say how we just play possession and dont pass forward...

But how on earth can you do that when you have 10 opposite players behind the ball?...Every team that plays us is doing the same thing, even Dortmund played like that.

What worries me is our away form...and that is because we dont know how to take advantage of teams opening themselfs.

About firing LVG...

Every coach that comes here wont win every game and wont win the title every year...that is something you all should know by now.

So what if we lost against potential Champions ?...they will probably get a lot of points this season and will be champions 3 or 4 matchdays before it ends.
They deserve it and we can be glad that we now have a serious contender for years to come [I hope so]. There will be derby between us again and that is just something great. We all missed that in recent years.
Next season BL will be even more attractive and we will be even more on fire....because then we will have a real opponent to play against.

All I want to say...I am sick and tired of reading about LVG etc...He is responsible for bringing us back to the world radar...and he was responsible for all that joy last season and for that joy after we won at San Siro.

Yes we dont have all super-top-worldclass players...have you all forgot...we are not Real Madrid, we never were and will never be. We could get some solid players to our squad...I agree.

But that does not mean you should scream LVG out, Pranjic go home, Badstuber sux etc..

Just get behind the team when they are losing, just for once...After Inter win you all were happy and LVG was the boss when we outplayed them at their own ground....but now when we lost against potential Champions you forgot about that happines...and are all over LVG and how our players suck.
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby Aequitas1987 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:10 pm

Sounds like Dortmund plays exactly like I play in FIFA. :lol: Also a side note Germany plays like this which is why they will beat Spain's total football possession game soon.

In video game terms its called "Ping Pong Fifa", where it literally is rapid-fire short quick passes through the center with the occasional back pass to the fullbacks. Results in less possession always like MUTU stated but also way more danger with insane amounts of shots on goal and usually results in a win, unless you play against a really good counter-attacking team/player like (torres for Liverpool now Chelsea) who just kills you when you misplace a pass.

I think what Bayern needs is more of a balance between "Ping Pong Football" and "Total Possession (LVG)", If LVG can fine tune his strategy to not be 90% about possession and control and more about risk-taking and defensive stability just slightly then we would really have a unique playstyle. Dortmund is the type of team you are supposed to play on the counter-attack but with LVG he wants to dictate and control the game so he will never sit back and play counter-attack.

Against Ping-Pong football the best thing to do is sit back and do fast breaks/counter attacks. The 2nd best thing is when they displace a pass, play the total possession game with them to frustrate them (no individual mistakes like Schweinis) string like 5-8 simple passes together to frustrate and then immediately SWITCH/TRANSITION to Ping-Pong football either via Muller or Schweini which is really scary for any opponent.

- It would make them LESS likely to play risky passes as loss of possession not only results in PURE frustration from Total Possession but also a highly likely danger of conceding with speed.
- It would result in them attempting to press even higher and higher and harder in order to win possession back (which already happens for us) and therefore giving us more space.

Overall, what i mean is that we lack the SWITCH. The SWITCH is the transition from normal paced possession football to PING PONG short passing football (Germany), our switch comes in the form of dribbling runs made by Ribery/Robben, i want more defensive splitting passes and quick 1-2's near the opponents D, like the Muller+Klose combo for Germany we need more of that. If we continue on this path we are simply emulating Barca's playstyle with different players but if we mix up the German NT playstyle with total possession and strike a balance. We will be the best attacking team on the planet.
Last edited by Aequitas1987 on Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:15 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:But that does not mean you should scream LVG out, Pranjic go home, Badstuber sux etc..

Just get behind the team when they are losing, just for once...After Inter win you all were happy and LVG was the boss when we outplayed them at their own ground....but now when we lost against potential Champions you forgot about that happines...and are all over LVG and how our players suck.


I agree that there is no reason to panic, but also we should be free to point out where LvG's tactics could improve. Nothing wrong about that, in fact I just read that Lahm and Mueller have basically said the same thing as me :)
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby Aequitas1987 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:21 pm

Also based on putting my thoughts down in my previous post.

I am going to put on my NOSTRADAMUS hat and make an insane prediction. This Dortmund vs Bayern game is what the EURO 2012 FINAL is EXACTLY going to be like.

Germany(Dortmund) 3-1 Spain(Bayern)

Lets see if it comes true in 2 years. :lol:
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby The Spyware » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:39 pm

I disagree about one thing that in the first half IMO Van Gaal didn't go for our usual possession football but used Schweini deep to benefit from his his long passes to the wings to quickly perform the attacking move and hit Dortmund before they become organized at the back
I think he used that in the first half when Dortmund were applying pressure high to our midfield , Tymo and Schweini always looked for the long pass to Robbery , and I think it was useful as LvG knew that our'' back to front '' build up play won't help and we always will find Dortmund with 10 men and blocking us , and actually it worked many times IMO and we were in great situations in the final third but we wasted it , also Ribery caught offside twice when he was having much space to run into
I think that was the reasn Schiweini played So Deep

in the second half they opted for very deep defence unlike the first , their 5 midfielders weren't pushing and applyying pressure that early and they sat deeper in front of their back four so the second half saw us implement our boring slow possession football (and yet we created chances ) and they scored against the run of play a third and it was very difficult then
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:47 pm

MUTU wrote:
sch0ll7 wrote:But that does not mean you should scream LVG out, Pranjic go home, Badstuber sux etc..

Just get behind the team when they are losing, just for once...After Inter win you all were happy and LVG was the boss when we outplayed them at their own ground....but now when we lost against potential Champions you forgot about that happines...and are all over LVG and how our players suck.


I agree that there is no reason to panic, but also we should be free to point out where LvG's tactics could improve. Nothing wrong about that, in fact I just read that Lahm and Mueller have basically said the same thing as me :)


I also know that we could get better and make some improvements...but that does not mean we should sack our coach and sell half of our players...because than we wont get anywhere.

But what I wanted to say was...that a lot of fans only think black and white...and think that we always must get away with a win.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion...i know that...but sometimes everyone must know [me included] that there are a lot of things that we dont know about what is really happening behind the closed doors...and that every coach out there knows a heck lot more than we do about tactics :)
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:23 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:that every coach out there knows a heck lot more than we do about tactics


LVG is a tactical genius, he's proven that over the years, but to me he seems inconsistent.

True, some of our losses this season were due to individual mistakes, but others were due to his own mistakes. I don't agree with a lot of his decisions.

But then again, we've won certain games mostly because of his tactics, like the one against Inter. But I believe that inconsistent people do not belong at Bayern. Maybe he's still trying to find the perfect formula with his current team, I don't know, but I'm getting tired of waiting now.
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby YlonenXabi » Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:56 pm

Look I respect Van Gaal and I think that he is probably the best coach for this team. But then he makes his stupid (at least I see them as stupid) decisions

He played Van Buyten during the whole first half of the season and I think that everyone could see that he was the one to blame in almost every goal we conceded

He played Ottl in too many games. Ok, he is part of the squad but come on, everyone (again) could see that he just is not Bayern material. He was probably our worst player in every match he played in. You can play him to rest some players but he was a starter in a big part of the season !!

Then he used Schweini as #10. Well, almost everyone could see that it wasn't the best for the team not to mention playing everyone out of his position. but that's arguable, okey.


I mean... every Bayern fan has his own ideas, his own formations and every Bayern fan like different players, but probably 90% Bayern fans agreed in those 3 things that I mentioned... how couldn't he see that?

I didn't want LVG out. I just wanted OTTL out because I was tired of that sh!t CM combo with Pranjic, Ottl and so on. Don't you remember Stuttgart game? Wolfsburg game? I don't mind to lose the league, but it hurts me the way that our team played. We SUCKED BIG TIME. It was really embarrasing.

And if LVG was going to keep Ottl with no reason then yes, LVG OUT. But it seems that Ottl era is finally gone.


--------------


And just one thing about the match. Some guys explained it really well a few months ago but I still watch Allianz Arena's field and I can't believe it is as big as Giuseppe Meazza for example. It looks much smaller. I was watching Dortmund game and it was like if there wasn't any space to play in. But in Giuseppe Meazza there was a lot of space
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby quaazi » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:09 pm

sch0ll7 wrote:Just get behind the team when they are losing, just for once...After Inter win you all were happy and LVG was the boss when we outplayed them at their own ground....but now when we lost against potential Champions you forgot about that happines...and are all over LVG and how our players suck.
I'm always behind the team, unlike many who were all "I CANT TAKE THIS IM GOING NAO" in the Offside chatbox. I accepted the defeat. But being behing the team does not mean I have to agree with the coach. And past deeds should not be a factor when considering current form. That's why we don't play Klose now. And it is equally true for managers. If lvg cannot equal or just miss the results he gained last year with a possibly worse team (don't forget how much Pranjic and Altintop and Buyten got playtime in the CL fixtures), then rather than going "oh well dude, keep going at it" it is reasonable to expect change, and fast. It looks like lvg is FINALLY starting to make the changes we kept complaining about since lord knows when, even if as a result of circumstances (Ottl losing his starting spot, Schweini away from CAM, giving Breno a chance), one would think that if he does realize that he was wrong now, and we could see it ages ago, then perhaps there is a problem with stubbornness and arrogance.

I still want him to stay though. I just wanted that he could learn his lesson BEFORE the crucial matches. But now, in the post-Dortmund melancholy, I'm just hoping that Bayern will get their shit together and perform in the games that matter and get this damn season over with bringing home SOME kind of silwerware. And after this season is done, lvg better recieve a stern talking-to from the management, and the he can continue into the next season and all will be well.
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby Element » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:04 pm

Short

Van Gaal played Arrogant

Klopp Played Realistic

Like My Friend said :if you play your usual game against Bayern , you are going to Get Doomed , Like Inter

he said that the Players of Inter were totally clueless in the last 75th minute because the way the play was not working at all


against bayern you need to adjust your tactics a little bit to be able to handle ROBBERY and this is What Happened

Klopp Sacrificed Schmelzer and also Highly decreased the Ball contact rate of Sahin and Bender in order to handle ROBBERY and give his team a minor change that LvG was not able to analyze before the match
MUTU wrote:I've been seeing this myself (and I'm sure most of you have) without the need to have stats to back me up

This is true

I mean the Stats 100% Reflect What I saw on the Field

I mean , I Felt that the ball was with us all the time , yet it was always in our Half
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby sch0ll7 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:09 pm

Element wrote:Like My Friend said :if you play your usual game against Bayern , you are going to Get Doomed , Like Inter


The difference was that we were always behind Dortmund and we needed a goal...and they just defended and used counter attacks.
They hit their goals at the right time and after that they could play their own game.
So you are saying that we should play counter attack after we were a goal down and playing at home?

You really cant do much when you need a goal at home and when a team like Dortmund knows how to defend collectively. Either you are lucky and score like that Gustavo goal or you are searching for room where you cant find it.

I am 100% sure if that Gustavo goal was the first goal at that match and we were 1 goal up...we would win that game.

But sometimes things just dont go your way.

YlonenXabi wrote:And just one thing about the match. Some guys explained it really well a few months ago but I still watch Allianz Arena's field and I can't believe it is as big as Giuseppe Meazza for example. It looks much smaller. I was watching Dortmund game and it was like if there wasn't any space to play in. But in Giuseppe Meazza there was a lot of space


It is because of the camera position.

Few days ago I watched a game [I think it was a West Ham game] and the pitch was huge compared to ours...but it really isnt :)...we have the biggest pitch dimensions allowed.

YlonenXabi wrote:Look I respect Van Gaal and I think that he is probably the best coach for this team. But then he makes his stupid (at least I see them as stupid) decisions

He played Van Buyten during the whole first half of the season and I think that everyone could see that he was the one to blame in almost every goal we conceded

He played Ottl in too many games. Ok, he is part of the squad but come on, everyone (again) could see that he just is not Bayern material. He was probably our worst player in every match he played in. You can play him to rest some players but he was a starter in a big part of the season !!

Then he used Schweini as #10. Well, almost everyone could see that it wasn't the best for the team not to mention playing everyone out of his position. but that's arguable, okey.


Ok..we all said that...

But now...when DVB is on the bench and does not play, Demichelis is not here anymore, Ottl is on the bench, MVB is sold, now that Schweini is back to #6...

We lost to Dortmund.

5 months ago Badstuber was our best CB...DVB and Demichelis were awful..therefor LVG was stupid to use them.
Now Badstuber is our main CB and all of a sudden he sux.
Schweini was bad as #10 and now when he is at #6 against Dortmund [making 2 big mistakes, and 1 against Inter].

All I want to say is...

Even if we bring Vidic, Neuer, Ashley Cole it wont get much better...it will get better but we wont just become Barcelona 2.

Every top team has its ups and downs during the season. But having 11 world class players does not bring you every trophy there is.

2 years ago we were really bad under Klinsmann...he had good players in Lucio, Toni, Ze Roberto etc...but we were not that good. But than LVG comes with Muller, Badstuber, Schweini [#6]...and we almost win a treble in our first season.
Most of you will say it was Robben who got us there...well he did his job...but to say he was the one to get us back to elite is just not true.

Just dont forget that after all those years of absence from Europe`s elite now we are back and are putting fear into likes of Manchester United, Inter etc...
Dont be too greedy...be happy that we are here where we are.
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby YlonenXabi » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:26 pm

Yea I know and that's why I'm not angry with LVG NOW. I was angry with him a few months ago when he kept playing Ottl, DVB and so on.

But now we lost against Dortmund because they were already 1231231 pointes above us, so a draw @ allianz was enough for them while we needed to win. We just couldn't have played like they did because a draw wouldn't have been enough for us. Plus we played in Meazza a memorable game just a few days ago so our players were really tired. I'm not angry with the team or with the coach. I'm really happy with our performance in CL because we showed the world what we are able to do :)

Now my friends keep telling me "Hey, what a great game against Inter" "That guy Gustavo was awesome" "Bayern totally outplayed Inter" :D
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby machkover » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:57 pm

SilentStrike wrote:LOL guys if LVG leaves we'll end up playing with no philosophy, no tactic nothing just 11 men running after the ball like Schalke is doing now.
No firing LVG is the worst decision we can make.

shalke players are just eleven players running after the ball ??? !!!! [-X i hope they won't prove you wrong when we play against them in the semi final !!! :^o
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby machkover » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:31 am

MUTU wrote:Apparently, the players who played the Dortmund match would have received a bonus of 20,000 euros each if they had beaten Dortmund. It still was not enough though :(

which proves they are dead losses !! we simply don't deserve to be at the champ league !! stop !! :evil: :evil:
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Re: [2011-02-26] Bayern Munich vs Borussia Dortmund

Postby machkover » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:19 am

Element wrote:MOST Embarrassing STATS Ever

Spox titled this paragraph with : Bayern , MASTERS OF ineffectiveness

Bayern had 64% Ball control

Bayern had 795 ball contacts compared to 442 from Dortmund

Bayern have Attempted 563 passes with a success rate of 85%

While Dortmund have ONLY Attempted 208 passes with a success rate of only 73%


NOW TO THE CRAP PART

Bayern's Back line (back 4 ) have passed the ball between each other many times

The Number of passes between Tymoschuk and Lahm alone equals 46 passes !!

While in Dortmund , the number of passes were the giver and receiver were a player of the defender Equal 4 passes only !!!!!!


Another Part

Hummels and Subotic have only Received 4 passes from their Midfield and forwards

while our CBs have received 50 passes from a midfielder or forward



3rd thing is

Bayern Shot 14 Shots
Dortmund also Shot 14 shots even though they only had 36% Ball control

4th Thing is

Sahin usually has more than 100 ball contact per game

while vs Bayern , Bender and Sahin together had a total of 94 Ball contacts

in brief we are excellent in sterile possession as i said earlier !! :evil: immitating barca that retarded LVG would say !! Either SUCK him or F*** him !!! though i suppose ottel will opt for the second choice !! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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